Teachers should receive a 1.8% premium for not working from home

[noblegiraffe]

Interesting suggestion from the NFER who say the teacher recruitment crisis shows no sign of abating.

They suggest at minimum a 3.1% pay rise this year for teachers (govt recommendation is 1-2%) but interestingly, to make teaching competitive with other graduate jobs that allow some element of working from home, teachers should receive 1.8% extra on top of that.

I think commuting costs used to be a given for any job, but now it’s something employers are going to have to start thinking about paying for if they want people in the office.

https://www.nfer.ac.uk/press-releases/teacher-recruitment-and-retention-crisis-shows-no-signs-of-abating-new-report-reveals/

So you're now saying that teachers who quit teaching go onto jobs that don't need a degree because they are experienced?

I think you are really clutching at straws here. Why are you so keen to discredit the graph? Graduates as a whole (including other professionals) generally work fewer hours per working week than teachers, therefore graduate jobs outside of teaching will be attractive to teachers on that basis.

@LittleBearPad

Ours have all teaching staff in the sports hall. It's loud and echoey and I find it so hard to focus. I miss virtual parents evenings.

I much prefer to speak to parents over the phone semi regularly, then at least parents evening is quick and efficient.

@LittleBearPad

Just to add, I don't think you'd find many teaching staff disagreeing with you about virtual meetings etc. It's the SLT who have a problem with it. Don't ask me why, as I've never heard a coherent reason from them.

We surveyed parents who were split 50:50 about in person:online parents' evening. The head prefers in person so that's what we have to do.

To make any real impact on workload, you either have to somehow reduce the amount of preparation and marking time a teacher needs to devote to each class/responsibility, or you have to reduce the number of classes they have. Anything else is just tinkering around the edges.

We just had a consultation document about workload sent out to staff at my school. Took bloody ages to read it, and it's just full of insignificant stuff. We were asked to make suggestions, and people did. But they were all very minor things, because we all know it is pointless to say 'We'd like to be paid the same salary, but for less contact time please!'

Lots of disabled people didn't, loads of disabled people are in work because wfh became more popular but sure do go on about how they can just go into an office now..

Plus plenty of us where wfh before, it's not like it didn't exist before lockdown plenty of people have been wfh for years

I don’t think teachers want to change anything. You simply prefer to moan. It’s easier

No. I don't think I've done much moaning in the almost 30 years I've taught. I've occasionally posted on here in support of other teachers, agreeing that the workload and expectations have become unsustainable. I've occasionally spoken up at school to point out that SLT can't simply keep loading more onto us - and asked what we should prioritise, or made it clear to them how long the task they've just set is likely to realistically take. I've explained why certain things don't work for my department, and why certain admin tasks are pointless.

I have accepted that it's not enough to want to change - government are not listening, and realistically as an individual I have little power. I came out on strike for the NEU on every single strike day they have called.

And now I'm leaving the profession because I've had enough. I'm done with it. I love being in a classroom, I'm a very experienced GCSE and A level teacher, and my results have always been excellent. I'm a loss to the school, frankly. And they will struggle to replace me.

For goodness sake, I’m interested in the graph and what it’s saying but I don’t think it is telling the whole story because it has excluded relevant other graduates. If it compared all graduates it would be more meaningful. i haven’t discredited it. You’re really defensive.

And most jobs don’t need a degree. There was a significant increase in university places that meant more people had degrees hence more employers said they were needed.

Five years into a job (or less) a degree is far less important to getting a job than a candidate’s on the job experience. It’s like GCSEs, unimportant once you have A-Levels, A-Levels then don’t matter once you have a degree, degree doesn’t matter once you have decent employment experience.

IT HASN'T EXCLUDED OTHER GRADUATES. As I have pointed out. It does compare all graduates.

You were complaining that it didn't only include professionals so I explained why they widened the net. You now appear to be complaining that it doesn't include professionals when it does.

You're complaining about me being defensive when I'm merely being exasperated that you keep misinterpreting the graph.

but I don’t think it is telling the whole story because it has excluded relevant other graduates.

Where have you read that?

It is not all graduates. It has selected for gender and similar pay.

You said so yourself.

It is not all graduates. It has selected for gender and similar pay.

<sigh> they looked at all graduates so they did not exclude any professions.

They did not look for similar pay. You made that up.

They weighted the group so that the demographics were similar by age, sex and location.

In the methodology appendix. It compares those with undergraduate degrees - when Teachers don’t just have undergrad qualifications and excludes other graduates on the basis of pay and gender. Hence ‘similar graduates’. So it is overall comparing lower paid largely female grads with teachers and then saying teachers work harder. Now they probably do against that dataset - how do they compare against the full graduate population? That would probably evidence that teachers hours are more in line with overall grade but at a lower median pay. It would support the argument - similar grads just muddies the waters.

You seem to fundamentally misunderstand the reasons behind the methodology, when you are not making up the methodology. It seems fruitless to continue this.

So what would you do?

A WFH bonus is not going to fly not least because the government and right wing press hate WFH?

Well nothing I would do will 'fly' because there isn't any money and there aren't enough teachers.

Teachers agree that what is needed to retain staff is at least a doubling of PPA.

Proper funding of support services, particularly SEN and CAMHs so that all of society's ills don't fall on schools to pick up.

Pay needs to increase above inflation to improve recruitment. The point about needing to compete with WFH jobs is a serious one. Teachers can't work from home so if that makes teaching less attractive, then other things need to improve to make it more attractive.

Scrap Ofsted in its current form.

Sort out child poverty.

No school I’ve worked at this century has allowed that. I know it’s sometimes a thing 8n primary because their PPA is usually a half day. The odd hours secondary teachers have are usually massively controlled by management. Nobody I know is allowed to just wander off when they have a PPA lesson.
To be clear, I’m not doubting you, Malbec, I’m just saying it’s really unusual.

It is part of the contract of Scottish teachers. However, in practice it's very rare to have a free at the end of the day and ones in the middle are pointless for that if you've any kind of commute.
I achieve the WFH benefits of making appointments, putting a wash on, going to the post office etc by working part time. My pay, career and pension have all suffered from this. If I had a WFH job I would not need to be part time.

A problem with meetings being online is that most teachers will be in school so they'll be there in person, then you might have one person who has their PPA that afternoon dialing in so they're really not going to be able to participate properly (I remember teaching lessons when you had kids in the classroom and kids at home and it was rubbish).

Having a meeting online while most teachers are at school would just be silly. Besides, we don't have the tech for it.

You understand that marking and preparation only happen when children are in school, surely?

There seem to be people who have never worked in teaching who think that they can solve teachers' workload problems with their useful suggestions that betray the fact that they don't know what they're talking about.

When those suggestions are shot down, they are then accused of not wanting to find solutions and only wanting to moan...

Comparison is difficukt as where i worked the extra hours were presenteeism by the bosses. Some did 7-6. But were reading emails or meeting allll day.
There was expectation after team leader level all overtime was free as required.
Every other job i did review teams came on and ridiculously decided the team wasnt needed or had too many staff (spgrad scheme kids who didnt know how to calc anything). Team ended up losing a lot of money as severely behind constantly.

Other team a role or 2 in a team but other person off after op for maybe 3m at a time! Obviously no cover provided and again seriously behind or expected to do literally 2 peoples work. Plus taking on whole extra 50% again work.

Re teaching it wears people out so a bigger issue is if workers are expected to work to even over 68... Why would a grad pick it.

The reason people want to wfh... Partly another failing of uk
Expensive
Delayed
Unreliable
Roads and public transport.

My location should take 10min into city. But realistically you would have to leave 8 to get in by 9. And many times buses not turned up. When you have to collect children you just cant be late.
Plus expensice compared to other countries. Why should i pay £6 a day for what should take 10min?

There will be an online meetings app in the tech you do use, MS Teams, GoogleMeet.

Hybrid meetings are possible and not sure what children have to with them?

There will be an online meetings app in the tech you do use, MS Teams, GoogleMeet.

How did we ever do online lessons without that knowledge?

By tech I mean cameras and microphones. A lot of teachers at my school used their own equipment during covid.

Hybrid meetings are possible and not sure what children have to with them?

Because we did the equivalent of hybrid meetings during covid, with the kids, and it was shit.