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Should or will Labour abolish Grammar Schools?

304 replies

redexrt123 · 11/03/2024 13:24

So Labour have already confirmed that they will add VAT to private school fees as one of their key tax policies. Firstly they hope to raise revenue to fund improvements in state schools. Secondly, many in Labour are ideologically opposed to private schools as they believe they create two tier educational system that fosters social inequality, as most parents simply do not have the option to send their kids private. One of the problems with the new policy from a tax revenue perspective, is that some, perhaps many, parents who can just about afford current fees may decide to send their kids to State school. This could be just for primary or sixth form or could be for their full education. In any event the new policy is likely to increase the demand for state schooling. In particular as head teachers of grammar schools have already indicated, it is likely to increase the demand for entry into grammar schools. As grammar schools have a selective intake, they tend to have the best exam results in the state sector (although not nessarily the best Attainment 8 scores) making them an attractive alternative to private education for many. Labour have not stated that they will abolish Grammar schools (by which I mean abolish selective academic entry) but they have been and still are opposed to the creation of new Grammar schools. Indeed many of the reasons why the Left are opposed to Private schools apply equally to Grammar schools. They create a two -tier educational system. Grammars have less poorer students (i.e. Kids on free school meals) than your typical comprehensive. Richer parents can game entry for their children as they can more readily afford private tuition for entrance exams.

So do you think Labour should turn Grammar schools into comprehensives? More importantly, do you think they will do so in the next parliament?

OP posts:
StarieNight · 11/07/2024 10:04

I don't understand why making education fair for all means shoving them into comps?

Why not put all this energy into tackling literacy and maths issues in primary schools.
Put this energy into turning around sec modern and comps!!

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 11/07/2024 10:06

accidentalteacher · 03/06/2024 19:14

If grammar schools are still run on the basis of academic ability, there is no guarantee that ex-private school pupils will automatically gain a place.

That’s because there are private schools, and private schools. Those that have selective entry, and those that will take just about anyone whose parents are willing to pay the fees.
There are plenty of the latter.

Badbadbunny · 11/07/2024 10:15

GreenTeaLikesMe · 11/07/2024 08:41

I'm glad to hear that you support comprehensives with sets, then.

Because that's how you can achieve the above.

No it isn't. I went to a comp with "sets". Trouble was that so few wanted to do various subjects that there was only one "set" for German for example. So everyone in the fourth year doing German was in the same class, from the A* pupil down to the disruptive no-hopers and the teacher had to try his best to differentiate the teaching as some were doing O level and some were doing CSE! (Same happened with our "middle" group in Chemistry, half O level, half CSE). Yes, I know we don't have O level and CSE anymore, but we do still have foundation and higher levels in some GCSE subjects.

There were 6 forms per year. "Setting" would suggest that there'd be 6 different ability levels for Maths and English. Nope. There were two lots of 3 ability groups, basically top, middle and bottom for forms a-c and top, middle and bottom for forms d-f. I was in one of the top sets for Maths. Even the "top" set I was in wasn't exclusively O Level, it was split between O level and CSE, so the teaching wasn't even geared wholly to O Level. The middle and bottom sets did CSE only. People in the middle groups couldn't "move up" as they weren't doing any O level topics so were already behind. Heaven knows why they couldn't do six sets of differing abilities rather then have two lots of 3 sets!

Basically, in my crap comp, "setting" just didn't work as there weren't enough "top" students to have "top" sets. Nor did they offer other options such as Latin, Further Maths, etc.

The real answer to the education problem is to make comps better, not scrap grammars! Scrapping grammars won't improve the crap comps.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

RidiculousPrice · 11/07/2024 10:42

Badbadbunny · 11/07/2024 10:15

No it isn't. I went to a comp with "sets". Trouble was that so few wanted to do various subjects that there was only one "set" for German for example. So everyone in the fourth year doing German was in the same class, from the A* pupil down to the disruptive no-hopers and the teacher had to try his best to differentiate the teaching as some were doing O level and some were doing CSE! (Same happened with our "middle" group in Chemistry, half O level, half CSE). Yes, I know we don't have O level and CSE anymore, but we do still have foundation and higher levels in some GCSE subjects.

There were 6 forms per year. "Setting" would suggest that there'd be 6 different ability levels for Maths and English. Nope. There were two lots of 3 ability groups, basically top, middle and bottom for forms a-c and top, middle and bottom for forms d-f. I was in one of the top sets for Maths. Even the "top" set I was in wasn't exclusively O Level, it was split between O level and CSE, so the teaching wasn't even geared wholly to O Level. The middle and bottom sets did CSE only. People in the middle groups couldn't "move up" as they weren't doing any O level topics so were already behind. Heaven knows why they couldn't do six sets of differing abilities rather then have two lots of 3 sets!

Basically, in my crap comp, "setting" just didn't work as there weren't enough "top" students to have "top" sets. Nor did they offer other options such as Latin, Further Maths, etc.

The real answer to the education problem is to make comps better, not scrap grammars! Scrapping grammars won't improve the crap comps.

If you don’t scrap grammars, you by association don’t scrap sec mods. How do you feel about them? They are where 75% will go.

Arraminta · 11/07/2024 10:48

Yes I agree. If setting worked properly in comprehensives it would be a wonderful thing, but all too often it doesn't. At our children's grammar there were 5 sets for Maths so the whole school was already one big top set. This was then refined even further, so all the girls in the top set had already got a Level 6 in their Year 6 SATs. I'm not sure that level of refinement is even possible in the current comprehensive system?

Badbadbunny · 11/07/2024 11:01

RidiculousPrice · 11/07/2024 10:42

If you don’t scrap grammars, you by association don’t scrap sec mods. How do you feel about them? They are where 75% will go.

For a start there are comps alongside grammars in lots of different areas.

The way to improve education for the "other" 75% is to improve comps.

No one on this thread has been able to explain how scrapping grammars will improve things for those 75%.

CurlewKate · 11/07/2024 11:25

@Badbadbunny "No one on this thread has been able to explain how scrapping grammars will improve things for those 75%."

People have. You just don't accept what they are saying!

OpizpuHeuvHiyo · 11/07/2024 11:30

@Badbadbunny the point is that any so-called comprehensive, if it is in a gramnar area, is effectively in the same category as a secondary modern no matter the name.

If the vast majority of the kids who would have been in the top set in a truly comprehensive school are instead in a different school, there will only be a handful of high-ability children in the "comprehensive" and they will be in a class with middling-ability kids. The overstretched teacher won't often have time to teach to different levels within the same class so the high ability kids don't get stretched to meet their full potential.

Comprehensive education can only work for everyone if there's no way for the highest-ability to escape, because the comp needs a proportionate quantity at every ability level in order to function as an actual comprehensive - unless they are given sufficient excess funding that they can run a "top set" with just 5 pupils if that's all they have. That doesn't seem realistic to campaign for.

I would love there to be a fully functioning comprehensive education system but that is incompatible with giving parents any kind of choice or variability and I value choice and the capacity for schools to specialise as well.

The existence of grammars does way more to harm kids in comprehensives than the existence of private schools because private schools exist for every ability level.

Namechange54354 · 11/07/2024 11:42

OpizpuHeuvHiyo · 11/07/2024 09:39

We currently have a huge number of tiers to our education system.

(1) The highly academically selective privaye schools which are generally accessible only to the wealthy when the child is very bright

(2) The somewhat less academically selective and more nurturing private schools where the children of the wealthy who are somewhat less bright or have additional SEN may go

(3) Highly selective grammar schools "superselectives" that take only the very brightest children from across a wide area

(4) Medium-selective grammar schools with a wider remit taking the above-average-bright children from a smaller area

(5) Faith school comprehensives which don't require money or examination for entrance but do require determination and careful attention and adherence to selection criteria from parents up to 5 years before their child needs a place, thus biasing intake towards the children of the comfortably-off and well-educated who have time and energy to invest over several years

(6) Leafy suburb comprehensives where there is selection by wealth due to house prices in the catchment area being circa £200k more expensive than houses of the same size in areas without an attractive school

(7) A motley selection of other often-unique schools that in some way attract a particular category and often thrive in doing so (e.g. music specialist)

(8) The comprehensives that take all the children who don't qualify for any of the above or whose parents aren't sufficiently engaged with education to care much where they go.

(Obviously also Pupil Referral Units and SEN schools too)

It's obvious that the schools in category 8 are going to end up with a mich higher than average proportion of more challenging pupils and are often a very unpleasant environment.

Labour have already worked out that they can't abolish (1) and (2) - taxing them will make them less accessible and will make the scramble for places at categories (3) to (7) more challenging and cut-throat - this may have a minor knock-on effect of category (8) schools taking a higher number of those who tried and failed to get a place at (3) to (7) type schools which may bounce them a little higher but may not.

All the children in type-(8) comprehensives deserve the education and opportunities that their contemporaries in types (1) to (7) are getting - even the ones who are disengaged with education and are disruptive and chaotic deserve better. It's not like a 13 year old has the maturity to make an informed decision that education isn't worth it for them.

The idea of trying to level the playing field by getting rid of all these different types simply can't work - the legal battles would be ruinous. Getting rid of any one or two categories would not stop there being a multi-tier system so it has to be all-or-nothing. When tony blair got in with "education, education, education" one of the best things they did was to increase category (7) with all sorts of specialist academies with USPs that made them attractive, many of which are thriving and are highly in-demand within their region.

Surely the solution is to do even more of this - gradually managing the unattractive undersubscribed schools to close from lack of demand while creating a plethora of inspiring specialist schools that have a lot of different ways for children to discover and grow their potential without having the number of high-grade GCSEs being the only measure of success.

Unfortunately this will require a lot of money and with 14 years of the wealthy and powerful creaming off everything they can to line their own pockets and make it easier for the rich to get richer while cutting and cutting education (along with all other public services) it will be a long time before any such initiatives can be launched. I think it's more likely that at first it will be as much as labour can be expected to do just to slow down the desperate spiral of decline in the sector

Edited

Absolutely this.

Getting rid of Grammars would hardly make a dent in the side of schooling inequality.

It would just make education worse for those in the position to go. (Some of who will come from poorer families).

And to be honest, I actually think selection by wealth (those who are able to send their DC to excellent comprehensives because their house cost ££££) is much more elitist than selection by academic ability.

I wonder how many of those wanting to get rid of grammars are fortunate enough to be in the expensive catchment of great comprehensive schools...

CurlewKate · 11/07/2024 11:45

"I wonder how many of those wanting to get rid of grammars are fortunate enough to be in the expensive catchment of great comprehensive schools..."

I don't. I live in a grammar area. So I know first hand what a hideous system it is.

Namechange54354 · 11/07/2024 11:46

Arraminta · 11/07/2024 10:48

Yes I agree. If setting worked properly in comprehensives it would be a wonderful thing, but all too often it doesn't. At our children's grammar there were 5 sets for Maths so the whole school was already one big top set. This was then refined even further, so all the girls in the top set had already got a Level 6 in their Year 6 SATs. I'm not sure that level of refinement is even possible in the current comprehensive system?

Yep, exactly.

In my grammar in the 90s, we had six sets for maths. It started with five sets, then they realised even with that there was too much difference in the bottom set. In comparison, I was in the second to top and achieved A at GCSE. I think there were a couple in the bottom set who didn't even pass.

We also had five sets for GCSE science. Two of which did triple and three double. They were also streamed depending on SATS results.

RidiculousPrice · 11/07/2024 11:49

CurlewKate · 11/07/2024 11:45

"I wonder how many of those wanting to get rid of grammars are fortunate enough to be in the expensive catchment of great comprehensive schools..."

I don't. I live in a grammar area. So I know first hand what a hideous system it is.

Me too. The grammar/sec mod system is horrific and so damaging to so many children.

We don’t have any comprehensives for many miles and aren’t in catchment for any as we are in a grammar county. So it’s grammar or sec modern only, apart from church schools, and we aren’t religious.

CurlewKate · 11/07/2024 13:11

@RidiculousPrice Where I am, the faith schools are basically secondary moderns with pretensions. With some exceptions, people tend to discover their faith when their children have failed the 11+, not before.

Badbadbunny · 11/07/2024 13:30

CurlewKate · 11/07/2024 13:11

@RidiculousPrice Where I am, the faith schools are basically secondary moderns with pretensions. With some exceptions, people tend to discover their faith when their children have failed the 11+, not before.

Personally I think Faith schools are just as bad, if not worse, than grammars. In our town, we have two huge faith schools, which means the two "comps" in the town end up as crap comps where the "parents who don't care" send their kids. The parents who do care, "find" religion for a year or two to get enough points. The two faith comps are both rated "exceptional", the other two are both rated "need improvement". It's created a two tier system in just the same way as the grammar/sec mod system does!

Talkinpeace · 11/07/2024 15:37

@OpizpuHeuvHiyo
Your faith in "specialist" secondary schools is touching.
In the early years they got an extra £250,000 of funding per specialist subject.
That was cut to zero in 2015
Every school has to deliver the same subjects.
NO state secondary school has any real subject specialism.

Decent sized comps ~ 250+ per year group ~ have five or six sets per subject group.
The top set classes in any such school are directly comparable to grammars and selective private.
Each other set caters to the needs of the children in it.
So EVERY child gets the right education for them.

Kids can be in top set maths
Bottom set sports
Middle set English
which is NOT POSSIBLE if they are not all in one school

OpizpuHeuvHiyo · 11/07/2024 16:46

@Talkinpeace and I said it would be lovely if that works. And it really does work in some areas.

If there are hardly any high ability children in the school (due to the presence of a nearby grammar) then it doesn't work because that "top set" is mostly made of middle-ability children not really high ability.

It doesn't work in a comprehensive which has a sufficiently poor reputation that every family who can find any alternative to their children going there will move heaven and earth to avoid it.

And it certainly doesn't work in schools that can't recruit enough staff to teach all their sets.

I agree it's a lovely theory. Out in the real world sadly it's mainly only the comprehensives in affluent privileged areas with no nearby grammars that truly live up to the lovely theory.

Talkinpeace · 11/07/2024 18:03

@OpizpuHeuvHiyo
Lots of the country has no nearby grammars.
(I set near as less than twenty miles)
Lots of non leafy urban areas have comprehensives that make it work.
And it DOES work.

If it did not, Comp areas would do worse than grammar areas in the results
but they do not.

FinalCeleryScheme · 11/07/2024 18:08

Lots of non leafy urban areas have comprehensives that make it work.

No, they don’t.

Talkinpeace · 11/07/2024 18:10

@FinalCeleryScheme
Really, you know every Town and the whole IMD database to be able to say that ?
Odd that the DfE data does not support your assertion

CurlewKate · 12/07/2024 06:46

To answer the original question- yes they should. No they won't.

BoudiccaOfSuburbia · 12/07/2024 06:49

FinalCeleryScheme · 11/07/2024 18:08

Lots of non leafy urban areas have comprehensives that make it work.

No, they don’t.

They do in London

Badbadbunny · 12/07/2024 09:36

@Talkinpeace

Top sets really aren't comparable to grammars at all. I was in the "top set" for Maths at my crap comp. It was a very mixed ability group. It was back in the 70s. Half the class were doing O level, the other half doing CSE. That was the "top set" of six forms, so basically only 15 or so pupils doing O level Maths out of around 180. It was a nightmare for the teachers to be teaching both O level and CSE in the same class. Same applied to other subjects.

When we were looking around secondary schools for my son, 20 years ago, we were surprised at the difference in subjects between comps. Some comps did further maths, some didn't, some did separate sciences, some did the 2 or 3 science combo, some did latin, some didn't. You really can't say that all comps offer the same subjects. They really don't!

CurlewKate · 12/07/2024 09:52

Bizarre how confidently people talk about the 11+ and the grammar school system based on their own experience as children 20 years ago!

Talkinpeace · 15/07/2024 16:23

@Badbadbunny
When you were at school, the school leaving age was 15 and 2/3 of eligible pupils took CSEs

What went on 40 or even 20 years ago is utterly irrelevant in the issues facing schools today.

The school leaving age is now 18
GCSEs have replaced GCE and CSE
AS levels came and went
BTECs came and went
EBACC came and went
IGCSEs were the big thing a few years back
and in the 80's, 5% of pupils went to University, the vast bulk from private school.

Isabella32 · 05/08/2024 23:52

No. I think there needs to be a place for naturally academic children to flourish. Mine only had test familiarisation 2 weeks before and passed a very tough test. I don't really believe in tutoring (maybe for maths content with stretches to Year 7 as I later found out!) - they can either do it or they can't, but I believed they should see the test formats at such a young age with limited exam experience, in an unfamilar format - free online!
At their 'outstanding' state primary school they became frustrated by distraction from children who are not as interested in ALL knowledge and the subjects like they were and this caused disruption on a daily basis
They have a 'special need' for it in this sense.
There should be more grammar schools to give children like this an opportunity to be with like minded children in a whole school setting, not just sets.
In reverse, if I had children who were clearly not as interested, I wouldn't torture them with the academic rigors of a grammar school.
I think ultimately the whole school ethos of this thirst for knowledge is more powerful and raises that child's self esteem than just being at the top set of a comp which is segregation anyway.