Should or will Labour abolish Grammar Schools?

[redexrt123]

So Labour have already confirmed that they will add VAT to private school fees as one of their key tax policies. Firstly they hope to raise revenue to fund improvements in state schools. Secondly, many in Labour are ideologically opposed to private schools as they believe they create two tier educational system that fosters social inequality, as most parents simply do not have the option to send their kids private. One of the problems with the new policy from a tax revenue perspective, is that some, perhaps many, parents who can just about afford current fees may decide to send their kids to State school. This could be just for primary or sixth form or could be for their full education. In any event the new policy is likely to increase the demand for state schooling. In particular as head teachers of grammar schools have already indicated, it is likely to increase the demand for entry into grammar schools. As grammar schools have a selective intake, they tend to have the best exam results in the state sector (although not nessarily the best Attainment 8 scores) making them an attractive alternative to private education for many. Labour have not stated that they will abolish Grammar schools (by which I mean abolish selective academic entry) but they have been and still are opposed to the creation of new Grammar schools. Indeed many of the reasons why the Left are opposed to Private schools apply equally to Grammar schools. They create a two -tier educational system. Grammars have less poorer students (i.e. Kids on free school meals) than your typical comprehensive. Richer parents can game entry for their children as they can more readily afford private tuition for entrance exams.

So do you think Labour should turn Grammar schools into comprehensives? More importantly, do you think they will do so in the next parliament?

They might win the election but not by a huge majority

Have you seen the polls??

I was at a grammar school myself as was my DW. DD1 got into one and is doing very well. DD2 is very bright and hard-working but didn't get the pass mark for the grammar school and is at a comprehensive where she's pretty much top of the class in most subjects. ( And incidentally, the extra-curricular opportunities are much better at the comp).

The trouble with grammar schools is they might be good for the kids who get in but they're doing nothing to help kids who failed the 11+ and get shunted into the educational slow lane. Where I grew up there was a real them and us culture which is hardly healthy. Should 11 year olds feel like failures with a ceiling on their life potential?

Also, coaching kids to get into a grammar school is no guarantee they'll work hard when they get there so those opportunities can be wasted (DD has plenty in her class who just can't be bothered).

Probably labour will leave grammar schools well alone but whether that's the best long-term policy is debatable in my view.

The trouble with grammar schools is they might be good for the kids who get in but they're doing nothing to help kids who failed the 11+ and get shunted into the educational slow lane. Where I grew up there was a real them and us culture which is hardly healthy. Should 11 year olds feel like failures with a ceiling on their life potential?

I’m fairly certain you would be singing from a different hymn sheet had your second daughter passed her 11+. You were very happy for kids to be disadvantaged so your first could go to a grammar 🤷‍♀️

It won’t happen as it costs too much money!

I live in a grammar county and everyone wants to change it but it costs too much

The trouble with grammar schools is they might be good for the kids who get in but they're doing nothing to help kids who failed the 11+ and get shunted into the educational slow lane. Where I grew up there was a real them and us culture which is hardly healthy. Should 11 year olds feel like failures with a ceiling on their life potential?

And should they be shunted into an educational cul de sac, with choice of MFL and triple science etc restricted, just because they were borderline on the day or slower to mature?

The country needs every single student educated to their potential, aspiration and ambition. Whatever that might be. Why risk segregating 75% of kids into schools which offer fewer opportunities?

Of course high ability kids need to be equipped to soar, mine were served v well in a well run comprehensive school (not leafy) , but we need ALL young people to be encouraged to be critical thinkers, to be problem solvers, to have confidence in their ability, whatever that may be. Even more important now that we all need to be able to recognise misinformation, question bot-led content, see the difference between ‘artificial’ and ‘intelligence’.

No I don’t. And I wish you dementors would fuck off trying to test everything down .

The jealousy in the country for people doing better than you is sickening. Honestly it truly is

Because the primary issue is bad parenting. Look at Kenya - their schools are far less equipped, but the parents would walk over hot coals to get their children there and the children themselves feel the privilege of education. Nobody would dare throw a chair or spit at a teacher there.

Until parents here value education, their little horrors will dominate the classroom and the kids around them will suffer.

They'd probably get absolutely bollocked if they misbehaved though 😂 Parents over here can't see that there's of course a middle ground between being too harsh and being totally permissive.

There are no state grammar schools in my region. Many of the schools are poor or only adequate and everyone is lumped in together. A lot of students suffer due to the bad behaviour of others. I hope Labour address this issue as so many are missing out on a decent education. I think it's unfair how some areas still have state grammar schools. I would imagine that behaviour is more civilised in such places. Every school needs to have civilised behaviour.

I agree with this

So your answer is to take it away from everyone else. I can’t stand this attitude that ‘if I can’t have it - no one can’

Kids that get in to grammar have worked extremely hard - this isn’t private school.

Only three counties in England are fully Grammar - Kent, Lincolnshire and Buckinghamshire.

Much of the rest of the country muddles along just fine with Comprehensive schools
and shockingly, some of those kids end up not feral
and do rather well in life
who would have thought it

And many pupils at ordinary state schools would like to work extremely hard, but can't because of the violence and disruption.

It's a North vs South issue as well because most (all?) of the state grammar schools are down South.

There's enough division in this country. Inequalities are making things impossible for many people.

Labour have been in power, for years, through Grammar schools, and few have been abolished. The only thing they have said is that they will remove the VAT relief on private schools.

Yes, they should, and no they won't.

Of course they shouldn't though Labour have form. Unless they are abolishing private schools as well.

@fedupdontknowwheretoputmyself
Last I heard, Lincolnshire was definitely not the South
Nor is Liverpool
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_grammar_schools_in_England

They may abolish grammars in the future. But only when metropolitan, middle-class Labour MPs have got themselves within the catchment of a good comp. 👍

Oh I'd get rid of those too.

Can't think of anything worse for social mobility than a two tier school system. And I believe that everyone regardless of academic ability should have the best available education.

I wouldn't worry though, I can't see it happening.

Labour have a mountain to climb in of structural economic issues, low productivity, huge numbers claiming benefits, etc. I think they’ll be too busy dealing with bigger problems and fighting lawfare suits for the vast numbers of pylons (5x more than have been erected in last 30 years), onshore wind turbines and solar farms they plan to ruin the countryside with. I feel sorry for the new government - so hopeful, so lacking technical expertise. Lead by an unimaginative civil servant.

I would love to see them abolish Grammar schools. They probably won't for a while but if they stay in Government for another term they will consider it.
Selective education based on a young child's academic ability is wrong on so many levels.
Universities are looking now at encouraging applications from students from a range of diverse backgrounds, including those who might not consider a university education for financial reasons (those on free school meals).
Students at Grammar Schools rarely have the same proportion of children on free school meals as the local comps. Traditionally, Grammar school kids have been treated as state school pupils when applying to university. That will change and students from disadvantaged backgrounds will be supported in their applications to all universities including Redbrick and Oxbridge.
I think some Grammar school parents will find a fairer system of university offers to students from a wide range of backgrounds hard to accept.

It's not so much two tier with grammar school, I find those want to learn, can.
My children are in a low income household and they are having a good time learning in comparison to their other friends at comp.

There needs to be school for people wanting to learn, those that want to be more hands on as learning isn't the same for everyone, a one fits all never works.

I remember my days at comp and the amount of disruption was insane.

Ask Harriet Harman how well her son did at a grammar school and then refused to resign.