Is public opinion changing on the merits of Higher Education expansion?

[tryasimite]

I saw this BBC article and it resonates with a lot of what I see here on Mumsnet and in "real life" ... burdening young people with expensive loans for attractive-sounding but unnecessary and sometimes poor quality qualifications from institutions fighting to keep their financial heads above water is not necessarily a good thing, and worth questioning.

BBC News - Geoff Norcott: Should my son bother going to uni?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68484598

I guess not then 😁

It is changing. Not sure where it’ll end up though.

Well I thought it changed a long time ago. Maybe I’m ahead of the curve though!

If you are academic and really interested in a subject passionately - or else it’s vocational - fair enough. Otherwise what’s the point?

Being psychologically saddled with a £30k + payback loan at age 21 seems big to me, maybe more if you are not financially supported by parents.

I was even thinking the other day (rather cynically perhaps) it’s a form of youth unemployment.

(Also it’s sad that the talented and academic are being saddled with the same debt as Joe Average who has no real interest in studying and just thinks the taxpayer can suck it up.)

Being psychologically saddled with a £30k + payback loan at age 21 seems big to me, maybe more if you are not financially supported by parents

Except 18 year olds aren't bothered by it! Parents may be (are!) but students themselves still show high demand. It's only in the last cycle or two where that demand may have plateaued.

I think the biggest attraction is in going away from home. Apprenticeships are good, but have the "fear of missing out" factor.

That said, I came across the "Not Going to Uni" instagram feed recently and they seem to be doing a good job of promoting alternative options. I expect there are other similar sites, but this was the first I saw with a high profile promotional vibe aimed at young people.

Maybe I'm behind the curve. But if I am, so are many other parents and so are the teachers at my kids' school.

Another thread is saying that financial instability is rife in uni's at the mo so the higher ed landscape and choices may be very different in a year or two . . .

I think a lot of it's about how available and easy to find out about the alternatives are. There's a framework in place for unis - you go to the open days, look at the prospectuses, you sign up to a place and structure you can understand for 3 years knowing there will be ways to meet people, clubs & societies, you get long holidays for 3 years. It offers a chance to spread your wings in a somewhat safe, bounded environment. It's a social and emotional safety net while 18 year olds are doing some more growing up.

Yes it's a lot of money, but it also has a lot of "soft" pull factors over going out to work FT and paying rent to your parents, especially for the less emotionally mature. What they get out of the actual course is only part of it.

I'm not saying at all that it's right for everyone or that it's necessarily worth the money - just that it has an appeal that belies the qualification, cost notwithstanding. My daughter is looking at degree apprenticeship and I am not wild about her signing up to stay with the same employer for 6 years while working 4 days a week and studying half time for a degree alongside, without so much of the fun stuff of uni. It seems a lot of pressure at 18. I think the alternatives need to get better, and perhaps sell their offering a lot better. Not Going To Uni may well help this along.

I'm an academic and in a popular subject at a popular campus uni so I obviously see competition for our places.
However I am very much seeing the result of over-parenting, with parents complaining (the most recent one) about lack of contact hours "all this money and they only get part time!".
Of course their little darlings won't tell them they walked out of my lecture due to my terrible views that are too scary for them to be in the presence of. A friend said it works out at £70 per lecture for them. Bet they don't tell Mum & Dad that.

DH & I are both academics so you'd think it would be a no-brainer for us to encourage DC to go to uni, but I'm a lot less sure it's a good idea these days.
Yes if you want a vocational degree that's required for your career, otherwise, maybe not so much.
I see my own students struggling to get worthwhile jobs on graduating. I also see the university rinsing them for every penny they can get whilst the person is studying. When I first started lecturing there was a subsidised cafe for students, now it's cheaper to go for a pub lunch than to eat something that's beige & barely warm on campus.

isnt that awful @igivein? And you being an academic too?

I wonder if you were radically intelligent and full of gusto, the last place you’d go to is “university”?

It seems irrational to worry about the costs of uni given the access to higher earnings that result from having a degree.

It's an investment in yourself and your future earning potential.

If you don't earn much, you don't pay much back.

For sure. The beleaguered “taxpayer”
pays though. Including all those 18 year olds who just got a job rather than state handout!

An ex friend of mine whose daughter had no academic talent but was going to “university” (an ex polytechnic actually) said to me “ well it’s probably sexist (my friend was pretty woke) “but my daughter will probably end up having kids and not having to pay any of it £ back)”. True I suppose, bit SOMEONE’s paying. It’s so cynical to my mind …

Not going also limits access to post-grad options, so deciding not to go does need thinking through.

It is possible but harder to find a non-uni route to many good careers.

This only applies if you incorrectly believe unis cost money overall.

@LightSwerve no idea what that means, unless you believe in The magic money tree? Someone - the taxpayer (you know that guy who serviced your boiler or the check out man/woman at Tescos) if not the student - is paying lecturers salaries and - in particular - the massive white elephants of the huge campuses that were built (that people only half attend now cos of the amount of studying online!!)

Universities generate a huge amount of money, they support about three quarters of a million jobs, many of which are in the wider economy.

You can't cut HE without harming the UK economy, which is bad for the UK taxpayer who will have to pay even more to make up the loss.

We've had enough self-inflicted economic damage for one decade, we need to grow things now.

I'm a taxpayer, we're all taxpayers, even those on pensions not paying income tax.

By that argument digging holes in the road and filling them up is of equal merit.

I don’t believe it’s a net contribution. It’s just a Ponzi scheme now, sorry. Ordinary people paying for 3 years of others not working - immoral when no intention of paying the “loan” back.

I think that rather than encouraging them to grow up in a supported way, university actually infantilises young people. At 18 you shouldn’t need to have your hand held into adulthood. Being thrown into an environment where everyone is 18-21 also doesn’t encourage them to take on adult responsibility within a community.

I am a taxpayer for sure., of course most of ilia are (so what?). But I don’t want my money spent Willy nilly, cynically or with zero accountability either.

I also think that if you want a holding system in which you teach you people how to live independently, there are much cheaper ways of doing it.

My opinion is the same as it has always been. Not everyone is cut out for degree-level study, they are not intelligent enough.

You don't have to believe it.

You can believe anything you like.

But it might be a good idea to do some research on the facts rather than believing stuff blindly. There's stuff in the HoL library on this I think.

Digging holes and refilling is very different. Not many international applicants paying large sums to watch that.

Overall, do you want to live in a wealthier nation or a poorer nation? Personally I'd prefer wealthier. The UK HE sector contributes to that, and could contribute even more.

That's why only about 45% go to uni.

As a nation it would be mental to decide we want our population to be less educated than our advanced economy peers. We would lose even more inward investment.

There are not many jobs grubbing turnips these days, the modern world is here.

@titchy 'Except 18 year olds aren't bothered by it!'

On the contrary, my DS, on track to get A'levels in Maths, Physics and DT, and aiming for some sort of engineering degree, has said he will only go if he can find a company that will subsidise him.

I'd say many teenagers are very aware of the debt.