Some thoughts about dying town centres

[OtterTails]

I have been reading an older thread from 2022 about how many towns across the UK are becoming hollow shells of their former selves. How anti social issues have increased in many of these dying towns, with empty shops and even entire disused precincts.
My own old home town suffered a similar fate - where once there was a mix of social backgrounds and culture, old and young, this has steadily been replaced by troubled souls (addicts/ street drinkers, etc). You never see elderly people there now, and the regular shoppers disappeared after the closure of M&S about 5 years ago. One reason that likely makes this worse is that the local council placed a lot of the troubled singles in the areas around the town centre, which I think has put the last nail in the coffin.

But even though most of us are aware of big stores such as Amazon and online shopping having played a huge pat in this decline, I think there's more to it. Probably a mix of many reasons. We shop differently now, and the wold is changing, etc etc...

And then I thought (not heard this mentioned before), since so many people in the thread said that difficult road systems and parking fees have put them off going into town, maybe our increasing car use has played a big role, too.
There are far many more people on the roads now than ever before, and many older town centres don't have the space or infrastructure to manage this. So in this sense I think that the way we use our cars has altered how we choose to shop, which is quite different to say 20 years ago at the latter end of the high street boom, when many people still used public transport to go to town, even if they owned a vehicle. Or there were simply less people driving, so the roads/carparks weren't as chock full.

Just a thought, it might not just be about business rates or online shopping.

In my old town now, most of the people on the dying high street are at the lowest income bracket, which was absolutely not the case even 10 years ago. I am wondering if this is because they are less likely to own a vehicle - and the only shops that remain cater to this market.
So our larger economy is shaping the decline also.

Most of the pretty, thriving towns I know aren't particularly affluent, but they do have a mix of culture and age ranges, and people coming through often. My old home town doesn't, so the casino's and cheap shops are the only one's left.

And public toilets have almost gone from most city centres. It was not too bad when the department stores still existed, but now they have gone you usually have to buy a coffee to pee. Just something else that puts people off from going in.

Another thing that is worth mentioning about towns like Wigan, is how the public landscape has become largely dominated by young to middle aged, usually drunk or aggressive men. I have heard that younger women don't feel too comfortable there, and this is evidenced on the centre streets.

Men's stuff is everywhere - there are about 10 barbers and 2 remaining regular salons. There are muscle gyms, and a host of football related shops and amenities. There is a growing booze culture that isn't at all family focused or safe for women either.
Most of the clothes shops have gone (only primark and a tired New Look remain, and the New Look is desperately quiet, so likely to shut soon).
The only time I see girls in Wigan is in Superdrug. There are no toilets anywhere outside of rough pubs, so good luck needing to change a tampon or deal with a baby. The last one was in the no long gone Debenhams, and like a pp said, this huge space is now full of dog beds, kitchen tat and factory seconds, with a book cycle in one corner, probably to assist the landlord/s not wanting to pay business tax.

I wonder why this gender imbalance?
I presume it just unfolded that way, but it was not that bad even 7 years ago. Gangs of men and tracksuited youths dominate, there is definitely a bristling aggression in the air as soon as you enter the place. The bus station is rammed with men in large groups and there's a really ugly atmosphere in there.

I have no idea how we fix these things, but unless our country evolves out of an outdated two party system that refuses to address this crap into infinity, we are likely going to see more of this spreading soon. We need more diverse and present politics.

Wigan sounds awful.

AH sorry, there might be a toilet upstairs in the grand arcade but it is well hidden and a hassle to get to.

I also want to clarify that even though 'male' interests such as football and gaming, vape shops and motorcycle stuff are enjoyed by women, there is still a very visible imbalance.

Something that hasn't been spoken about on this thread is rents. High rents are crippling many high streets, just as high rents and mortgages are crippling householders. Rentier capitalism is funnelling so much money out of the pocket of the average British person, usually straight into offshore accounts.

There's a thriving independent venue in our town- the kind of place often namechecked on Radio 6 Music. Gigs are usually sold out, there is also comedy, theatre, queer nights, cut price pay-as-you-feel feast nights, afternoon child friendly gigs, charity fundraisers....you name it. Despite being incredibly popular, they are in a constant state of struggle, because most of their income goes on sky high rent.

Public transport has also suffered from the wider political situation. Don't forget that the Tories deregulated buses, actually banning local authorities from running their own bus services. It's no coincidence that London is the only place in the UK credited with decent public transport- it's the only city that managed to resist deregulation. I hear that Manchester has just managed to bring its public transport back under city control- I'll be interested to see how that goes.

It sure is, and I feel bad saying it. The people were always lovely. I don't know where they've gone!
I had one remaining family member there (a few miles out in Up Holland), and it took her several years of denying how bad it had become before the upped sticks. A lot of people wanted, naturally, to defend it, but it catches up even in the suburbs.

I have an old friend who is renting a flat in the Scholes area next to the town centre who says the entire landscape around him is literally 'dog shit and dereliction' (great name for a rock band tho!). Fortunately he is working on location there and can leave at the end of summer. The 1 bed flat, which is in bad repair in a filthy street costs him £700pcm.

Pre covid out town center was suddenly full of men and aggressive beggars - a lot of women said they started shopping in nearby town and other cities in response - and then post covid there are tents and beggars but not aggressive in your face ones - but shops in meantime have one by one gone - and eating places. It's dead in the week and only busy weekends and weekend nights.

They are doing lot of flats - above shops or in-between - they also did the market up but the butchers and haberdashery we used to go to went elsewhere citing closure times and high rents. Initially there was a lot of interest - but prices were high for everything in market - and now newspapers report huge monthly losses - to point huge tax paper loan they got is now at risk.

It's very dependent on where you live. Where we are the high streets do well, but we do have tourists for half the year and plenty of second home owners/wfh Londoners who are willing to spend on independent shops and frequent the dozen or so coffee emporiums. The city centre is decent and completes with the out of town mall because there's enough non drivers and traffic is bad enough to make it in inconvenient to cross the city to the mall which is technically next county. Plenty of charity shops of course but I'm able to buy everything I need in my small town still, a rarity - well for now, the council is imposing parking charges soon which could kill the local tourist trade (people driving out to the coast from the inland towns and villages for the day)

@BenefitWaffle I think this is very dependent on where your nearest big town or city is- we are lucky living in Bath- and on a very good bus route too (every 6 minutes apart from Sundays) our city is nice to potter in and we don't have a big out of town retail park too within 8 miles. - so people do come into the city from surrounding areas . (Albeit a very small city) - all ages and all classes too . I've travelled around a lot in UK with work and as an example had to go to Manchester a few months ago. I'm not sure if I lived on the outer edges and had facilities close to hand that I would go into Manchester much- I found it really claustrophobic and grubby . When we lived in south west London I tended to go to Kingston shopping rather than into the west end etc- but again I rarely went to a retail park - occasionally Westfield but not often.

Whereas when we lived in Bristol we went to cribbs a fair bit- because I'm not keen on the shopping in central Bristol .

So much of this is I think town/city dependent , rather than everyone just nips to the retail park- I find them monumentally depressing places. My son is 25 and lives in London- he potters all over, Notting Hill, Hampstead, Greenwich, docklands, Dalston- he likes the variety- he doesn't do retail parks- but again he's got lots of choice for a pleasant day out at modest cost (apart from housing of course)

If you only build detached houses with large gardens then you will bankrupt the country. Apartments can be nice places to live. Many people cannot be bothered to maintain their gardens so would be better off without.

Planting greenery and installing play equipment on the street allows everyone to share a communal garden and build a close community.

Any reason you stay there @OtterTails - because I would be hot footing it out - I actually really like Liverpool and the Wirral , so it's sad that Wigan is so awful

@DdraigGoch indeed - when we lived in Copenhagen it's a lot of apartments- but all was good on 'most' areas- the grim areas stood out

@DdraigGoch I do not know of any apartments in England that look like that. It is always cramming as much accommodation into as little space as possible.
And in most English city centres those spaces you post would be taken over by homeless people and drunks.

@DdraigGoch Town houses, the equivalent of terraced houses are good family housing.
But I agree with an early commenter. Lets see all the planners and architects move into these English city centre apartments if they are so good.
I live in a place outside Leicester and Nottingham has built loads of apartments and the city centre is a total shit hole. It is in a terrible state. Apartments have done nothing to regenerate that city. It has just become a place for students to get drunk.

@Crikeyalmighty it’s not just Wigan let’s be honest. Most of the town centres in that area are horrendous and prosperous folk have deserted them. Bolton where I live is similar and the next town along, so are Rochdale and Oldham. They have long standing socioeconomic deprivation, low aspiration, few well paid jobs. There’s a huge brain drain to other areas because basically they are thoroughly depressing places to live with poor employment opportunities. Don’t get me wrong, there are some desirable areas but they are bubbles and these communities never mix. I don’t know how we can attract the people with money to our town centre because no one actually wants to go there, there is nothing. The council is currently building a lot of social housing right in the centre where our old bus station was, but the occupants of these will undoubtedly be people who have little money to spend.
We have a large shopping park about 6 miles out of town that’s clean, has parking and no homeless or beggars. I reckon eventually this will become the main shopping area and the actual town centre will shrivel and completely die.

If you go to the right places you'll find plenty of desirable apartments. It's not a binary choice between concrete high-rise buildings and suburban sprawl, attractive mid-rise developments do exist in the UK and can still be built (unlike in North America where building codes make new mid-rise development almost impossible). The Victorians built some; the road opposite the secondary school I went to (all built post-2000 in a suburban area) had nice new-build flats. Plenty of desirable apartments have been built into the shells of old industrial buildings in city centres too.

Of course being desirable pushes up property values, as demand exceeds supply, which is all the more reason to build more. We're a small island and the only way to solve the housing crisis is to build up. By "up" I mean four or five storeys, I realise that 1960s tower blocks aren’t appealing.

The provision of play equipment pictured is better than any play street you'd find in the UK, but nothing that couldn't easily be installed.

@DdraigGoch where outside London, but in England, have apartments helped regenerate shopping areas?

I live in Shrewsbury, the town I am talking about was my home town - i left there quite young, as did my family later. It is very sad though. I remember it thriving.

Pre covid out town center was suddenly full of men and aggressive beggars - a lot of women said they started shopping in nearby town and other cities in response - and then post covid there are tents and beggars but not aggressive in your face ones - but shops in meantime have one by one gone - and eating places. It's dead in the week and only busy weekends and weekend nights.

I wonder if women were singlehandedly keeping the high street economy afloat! The women leave, the shops follow. The preponderance of men in groups in these town centre's has definitely had an effect.
I wonder what bring this about, and where they came from...

@OtterTails similar with me- I live in Bath but am originally from Mansfield- till I was 29- mind you that sounds better than Wigan even though it's not great!!

@Grapesarenottheonlyfruit thats awful- I do know that area somewhat and have friends who live on edge of Rochdale- to be honest if I had a decent income in that area I would be going to Uppermill or Delph

I don’t think it’s really a parking thing, it obviously hasn’t helped but people would drive in if there was a strong drive to visit a town centre.

The way people shop has just radically shifted and so for the vast majority of people who are time poor, there is absolutely no driver to visit a town centre. If I visit a physical shop I want to be in and out in 15 minutes or less and I’m going for a specific item. People don’t browse or go shopping as a hobby anymore.

I think we also have retail areas which are now far too large and councils seem to be constantly trying to fill units rather than repurposing the space. Our local medium size ex mining village has probably 30 units plus three small supermarkets and the size of the village just can’t sustain that many bricks and mortar businesses.

@oldestboy

I don’t think it’s really a parking thing, it obviously hasn’t helped but people would drive in if there was a strong drive to visit a town centre.

Personally, I now only go into our town centre for dental appointments as we're still with an NHS dentist who happens to have their surgery in the town centre. Even that's a pain with the congested one way system, traffic calming, pedestrian crossings everywhere and then ruinously expensive council car park charges. Funny thing is, despite the one way system being always congested, the town centre itself is usually very quiet as are the council car parks - all the cars clearly aren't going into the town centre! I "may" go to a shop or two after the dental appointment if they've not been running late and I've got 15-30 minutes left on the parking ticket, but usually don't buy anything as the choice of shops is poor and those we do have usually don't have things in stock (i.e. Clarks & M&S) so the staff tell you to order online!!

This is an interesting thread. I live in central(ish) London and don’t have the transport issues described. There are a lot of empty shops on my local high street - I think the landlords have put the rents up.

I don’t think anyone has mentioned chuggers yet. We still have loads (at each end of the high street) and they are not doing the shops at those spots much good. Unless I really want to go to the shops, I’ll avoid it as I really hate being approached by people who want money.

Preston by contrast is doing reasonably well. Better local governance and town planning.

Most north west towns really struggle, barring the more well off and leafy ones (which tend to be smaller).

You'd think more of the Greater Manchester towns would benefit from being under that jurisdiction. Bury doing better for example. Wigan, Bolton, Oldham, Rochdale is real industrial decline.