Some thoughts about dying town centres

[OtterTails]

I have been reading an older thread from 2022 about how many towns across the UK are becoming hollow shells of their former selves. How anti social issues have increased in many of these dying towns, with empty shops and even entire disused precincts.
My own old home town suffered a similar fate - where once there was a mix of social backgrounds and culture, old and young, this has steadily been replaced by troubled souls (addicts/ street drinkers, etc). You never see elderly people there now, and the regular shoppers disappeared after the closure of M&S about 5 years ago. One reason that likely makes this worse is that the local council placed a lot of the troubled singles in the areas around the town centre, which I think has put the last nail in the coffin.

But even though most of us are aware of big stores such as Amazon and online shopping having played a huge pat in this decline, I think there's more to it. Probably a mix of many reasons. We shop differently now, and the wold is changing, etc etc...

And then I thought (not heard this mentioned before), since so many people in the thread said that difficult road systems and parking fees have put them off going into town, maybe our increasing car use has played a big role, too.
There are far many more people on the roads now than ever before, and many older town centres don't have the space or infrastructure to manage this. So in this sense I think that the way we use our cars has altered how we choose to shop, which is quite different to say 20 years ago at the latter end of the high street boom, when many people still used public transport to go to town, even if they owned a vehicle. Or there were simply less people driving, so the roads/carparks weren't as chock full.

Just a thought, it might not just be about business rates or online shopping.

In my old town now, most of the people on the dying high street are at the lowest income bracket, which was absolutely not the case even 10 years ago. I am wondering if this is because they are less likely to own a vehicle - and the only shops that remain cater to this market.
So our larger economy is shaping the decline also.

Most of the pretty, thriving towns I know aren't particularly affluent, but they do have a mix of culture and age ranges, and people coming through often. My old home town doesn't, so the casino's and cheap shops are the only one's left.

I hate online shopping - can't be arsed with retuning stuff that isn't right but my town has almost 10 000 population yet there is nowhere to buy clothes whatsoever since M and Co closed down. It's full of charity shops, takeaways, nail bars and Turkish barbers. I'd have to drive 20 miles to the bigger town but even there the High Street is similar and everything revolves around the retail park.

I feel sorry for older people who don't use the internet and would struggle to get to the retail park as it isn't served by the bus.

Clothes shops should be a draw to in person shopping but everything is online so why go to the damn shop.

When I was pregnant with my first I tried to go to the local big town's high street to try stuff on for my new shape, the entire maternity ranges were on line which is unhelpful.

As a teen we used to go shopping, trying things on and buying stuff we liked... now there is no point, I mostly pick up impulse clothes buys at the supermarket because I can feel the fabric before I try it on, I'm fussy ...

With the demise of the clothes shop as a destination, there is no real point in going "shopping", I'll be going out for a meal/coffee / walk which might well be to an isolated independent place rather than a "high street".

If planners want people to use busses then busses need to go from and to the right places without taking 4 times as long as a car!

Our city centre got rid of the bus station. I now have no idea where to get a bus home from - the two times I tried it the bus stop I needed to use were in different places and trying to find out where to go was a nightmare.

The place is depressing anyway (and I realise this is a vicious circle) as so many shops are closed/vaping shops and the whole place looks run down.

I prefer our nearer small town, which is technically within walking distance, but that's more difficult now as they've stopped all buses on the weekend. I used to walk up with DS and get the bus back, but can't do that now.

@user1477391263 Nice theory, but you can already see that it does not work.
Look at Nottingham. Lots and lots of buildings in the centre have been turned into student and luxury flats. It as astounding how many there are. But the City Centre is a shit hole. We used to drive there to go shopping, we would not go near it now. Apparently it is busy in the late evening with students going to pubs and clubs, but I am not interested in going out drinking with 20 year olds at 11pm and later at night.
What you are proposing does not work. The people who want to live in these kind of places do not shop in most local shops they go on the internet.
It is older people like me who still go to shops, and only retail parks and garden centres cater for us. The places that still have a lot of decent shops are in wealthy areas with an older demographic or have a fair amount of tourists.

I also agree with why would I go into a city or town centre to eat out or go to a cafe. Unless you are going to high end places, the best independent restaurants and cafes are not in centres of cities. The rents and rates are too high. I do not want to travel into a city centre for a Nandos or Pizza Express. I can go to a gorgeous Turkish restaurant local to me, or drive to Narborough Road and eat lovely Asian food.

Yeah, I live in a city and the most upmarket shops we have are M&S Next and hotter shoes. Seriously it is impossible to spend money even if you have it. Exclusively Turkish barbers, phone repairs, coffee shops and £shops other than that. Oh we also have boots

@Crikeyalmighty

we need to get rid of business rates and just charge for services used (rubbish etc

Business already have to pay for waste disposal. It's not included in business rates, which actually offer no services at all - it's just a tax.

@Randomsabreur

If planners want people to use busses then busses need to go from and to the right places without taking 4 times as long as a car!

I agree. Most towns have "city centre centric" bus services, i.e. imagine a clock face or cycle wheel. Most routes go from the edge down the spokes to the centre, some go out the other side to the opposite edge.

That's completely useless if, say, you live on the edge at 9 o'clock and want to go to the retail park at 11 o'clock as there are no buses going around the outer edge. You have to get a bus to the centre and then a different bus to the outer edge retail park which, in my son's city case, takes 2 hours whereas driving directly along the outer edge road takes 10 minutes!! You can guess why he takes the car!!

Same problem as he lives at 9 o'clock but works at 5 o'clock - again no direct buses, so it's the same 2 hours to go into town, change buses and out the other end. Compared with a 20 minute drive around the outer road, even in rush hour traffic. It's a no brainer.

Councils are obsessed with thinking everyone wants to go into the city centre, but many commuters (drivers and bus users) don't - they need to go around or through the city centre and as towns/cities have developed the bus routes havn't and remain suitable for how the city looked 30 years ago!!

Nail on the head.

At one end of our nearby town, there was a busy vibrant shopping street that had everything, butchers, bakers, newsagents, greengrocers, chemist, hairdressers, even dentists and pet shop. Not a vape nor charity shop in sight.

Trouble was (for the council) it was free on street parking! So they hatched a cunning plan. They pedestrianised it, knocked down an entire block of housing (compulsory purchase order - fair enough it was run down and semi derelict), and built a car park - ker-ching!! Unfortunately they took so damn long to pedestrianise the street - six months of disruption, holes being dug, barriers, etc., and they didn't start demolishing the houses and building the car park until after the pedestrianisation happened - it was at least a year before the car park opened. By which time, nearly all the shops had closed down due to lack of business - pedestrians couldn't get there because of the road works and even when that stopped, motorists had no where to park. Now the entire street is mostly empty & derelict, with just the usual betting shop, charity shops, vape shops, mobile phone accessories and a few nail bars. The council completely ruined a vibrant shopping street by being anti-car and greedy to get parking fees!

Taxguru yup that's it exactly. The campaigners near me think getting rid of car parks or charging extortionate fees will somehow help..... Er....

They need to understand who still goes in shops. Without that understanding they are creating spaces where only those with no choice use shops.

My local garden centre is always busy and grown enormously. It used to be just plants and a few gifts, but now sells fresh food, clothing, a bit of furniture, cards and much more. That is because older people can easily drive and park there. It is easy and safe to walk around, wheelchair accessible, and plenty of places to sit for a rest.

Yes all those things. I'm only 40s but with health conditions so far more likely to go to a garden centre than the town centre currently. Good parking. Easy clean toilets and don't have to walk too far.

I don't think cars are the enemy.

I think the penalizing of car use is, including the high cost of parking.

I live in an area where there is a strong car culture, where pedestrianisation was the big new idea in the 80s and early 90s - it turned out to be very naive, and almost succeeded in destroying once thriving shopping districts both in the adjacent big city and in my suburb.

What pedestrianisation/ public transit access only did to the city next door was ensure that only people who couldn't afford a car, and came from the places where the bus routes took them directly to the shopping area, found it a convenient shopping destination. These people were from a demographic that would normally shop at a pound shop/ dollar store. They didn't have the disposable income available to them to spend in the shopping district. The street was always full of people waiting for busses or sitting around smoking, with litter blowing in the wind. So much litter.

Wider trends in the economy played a part too - nothing happens in a vacuum - and some cities have developed successful pedestrian shopping and entertainment districts. They tend to be in already affluent areas though.

Perhaps we should name cities and towns with clever design or ideas which work.

(I'm hoping that someone with influence will be reading this thread 😉😊)

Copenhagen - I've only visited once about 10 years ago and yes, I know it is relatively flat, affluent and perhaps better weather and a naturally beautiful river - but we (parents with 2 young kids who adored sitting in a convertable Christina Bike) rented the cheapest apartment we could find in what was meant to be a not very salubrious area. Oh my word, it was gorgeous. Not just the old, rich bits, but the area we were staying. So impressed. Basketball courts & outdoor tennis tables as part of the street furniture. Kids play parks hidden in squares at the back of building blocks to afford shade and shelter and safety - loads of them - natural materials and real art/thought put into them. We hopped from one beautiful park to play park to the next hidden gem play park and I could have been wrong, but I thought there was a real sense of community. In my mind, it would solve some of the exorbitant cost of child care as once kids up a bit, neighbourhood families could pool days off to mind a happy tribe of kids very easily (I work part-time and we actually did this, covering before and after school and holidays for each other around our local primary because families & kids became friends)

Geneva, fresh flowing water troughs dotted all round the place to fill water bottles for free. Yes, they probably have springs, but we could have taps. Flowers cascading from window boxes in otherwise pretty grey apartment blocks transformed them.

Bern etc- beautifully tended vegetable patches squeezed in any available place.

Sarajevo - chess clubs in downstairs of apartment buildings. Trams. Wide tree lined boulevard to walk beside the river so thronged with people on summer weekend evenings there is almost a circuit operating.

Amsterdam 🚴😍. OK, it's flat, but we have hibred electric bikes to get up the odd hill now.

Sun rise yoga on roof tops. Thai Chi in the parks. Basketball courts & tennis courts replacing rooftop parking.

Independent shops - I've already mentioned tax & rate changes. At the moment, in many areas landlords are getting far less than the rates or are putting in charity shops to avoid the double whammy of no rent, but still being liable for rates. Landlords need to make capital repairs etc, with no income, they just can't make it work. And small businesses in many areas are struggling with in equitable rates bills - big out of town sites/anchor sores with loads of parking paying peppercorn rent and online businesses paying warehouse rate or perhaps even industrial estate nil rate.

If building or repurposing for social housing/apartments, let's remember how important natural light is. Space can actually be quite small if it is used cleverly with good light (furniture does need to exist to fit specifications though!) use of sliding doors, clever inbuilt storage, convertable living space etc.

Both my nearest City and town centre are dreadful.
The city has a very successful University, so gods knows what it would be like without.

@whattimeisteaready what Town please? Hoping to find a good place to move soon. Currently live in London.

@NamechangeRugby yep we lived in Copenhagen for 20'months all through lockdowns etc- it's a really good place with a family- it is pricey and tax is high but yes you can see what you get for your money- and a lot of those flats in very ordinary areas are absolutely mint inside and are social housing too. Childcare around £280 a month and good quality childcare too from infants upwards

@taxguru do you know I didn't realise that! Every days a school day on mumsnet

Sounds bloody lovely

Perhaps the solution to out of town centres is to change the way that council tax and business rates are charged. Tax the land take which will sting the sprawling out of town big box stores with their acres of parking, but not the high-density shops in the centre. Deny planning permission to any development that doesn't prioritise public transport and active travel.

@JenniferBooth it is- some residential areas are a bit austere flat blocks but are suprisingly good inside with playgrounds etc - there are of course some lovely leafy areas too of individual flat blocks and lovely 'villas' (detached and semi detached scandi style houses- we rented one of these houses and compared to UK it wasn't too bad -

@AnaMRT It’s Beverley, East Riding of Yorks
I was talking to an independent shop owner the other day and she said there’s been a huge influx of people from London last few years as now there’s a c.2hr direct train there

Our High St is ok, but could be better. It has no department store anymore. But it has lots of the mid/lower range shops - large Primark, H&M, TKMaxx, New Look, Next. Also River Island, Peacocks, Boots, Superdrug, Body shop, Poundland, the Works, WHSmiths, Rymans, Waterstones, Clinton's, HMV, JD Sport, all the coffee shops, lots of restaurants and cafes and bubble tea shops. But also lots of empty units - used to be TopShop, Topman, Dorothy Perkins, Burtons, Miss Selfridge, Monsoon. There are no higher end shops - no Hotel Chocolat, Rituals, Lush not even Zara. There are frequent markets. Also entertainment - cinema, climbing wall, library, playground, park, gym, escape room type place, Boom Battle Bar - whatever that is!

My DD's school is close by so we go in a lot. I know lots are saying youngsters don't want to look around the shops but my DD and her friends like nothing more than having a look round the shops and buying a few things and then a milkshake from McDonald's. We went into Primark today as I wanted to get some Easter presents for my nephew and they've just got a Hello Kitty range in of which DD is a massive fan so we were in there ages looking at all that and choosing a few things for her birthday!

I certainly think the huge out of town shopping mall has contributed to the decline. It has free parking and I used to love it when mine were little for being completely pedestrianised and completely smooth so nothing for them to trip on! Obviously online shopping of which I do a lot. And although the girls love shopping in the town centre of course they love Temu and Shien too. I think to survive the shops need to create an 'experience'. Something to physically go there for. I do miss being able to take my DD to Top shop and Miss Selfridge as she is approaching that age. She likes River Island kids but we only have the adult shop here. Her favourite shops that we have on the high st are TKMaxx, Primark, H&M, Boots, Superdrug, HMV (pop culture stuff/Kenji stuff)

Our delightful small Devon market town has a lovely indoor market five days a week and brilliant deli-indie type shops, plus outdoor farmers' market five times a month, several independent clothes shops and Boots/Smiths; feed merchants and farm stores sell all the practical kit you could want, plus Tesco, Morrisons, Lidl and Coop just on the perimeter. It succeeds because there's some, limited time, free on street parking so it is easy to run quick errands but the council (strapped for cash as are they all) wants to have paid parking. Traders are all opposed because they realise it would drive discretionary shopping elsewhere. But as it is a small hub for a big rural catchment, the public transport is only just acceptable 9-5, and for anything outside that you need a car. So school, starting at 8:30 is possible by bus, but a chef in the (very very posh) country house hotel, starting early or finishing late, HAS to have a vehicle.