How to call out someone who uses autism as an excuse for shitty behaviour?

[Higgeldypickeldy]

I have a family member who is female, 40s, single. Very very judgemental while blowing her own trumpet constantly, self centred, only talks about herself, bossy and controlling over my DC. Desperate to have an issue, e.g if you have a headache her headache will be ten times worse, blames everyone and everything for her woes in life without taking responsibility for her own actions and outcomes. After a particularly horrible day with her recently we pulled her up on something in a very minor way which has since blown out of all proportion and made to be all our fault. She is now saying all her shitty behaviour is due to her being autistic and that we dont understand her. I think she is definitely on the spectrum but feel she is using this to excuse and legitimise her shitty behaviour. But how do i challenge that without looking like an arsehole?

@MissHavershamReturns the main clue is that these behaviours are only evident when it suits her, or she needs to blame someone else for her making yet another bad decision. If I truly believed autism was the cause of her behaviour I wouldn't have an issue, I'm not an arsehole but I believe it's being used to excuse behaviour that she is fully aware of.

You carry on protecting your children from someone who’s horrible to them. Whatever the cause of her behaviour towards them, and you and your husband, you don’t need that sort of negativity in your lives and your parents in law can piss off too if they want to choose to enable her bullying instead of having a relationship with their son and grandchildren.

Does she even have a diagnosis? Doesn’t sound like it. But even if she does, the impact on your family is the same and you shouldn’t tolerate it.

Is she actually diagnosed autistic, or does she just think she is?

Being autistic doesn’t excuse shitty behaviour though - your feelings that she’s treating you badly are just as valid as her feelings that she’s been treated badly. If you’re unable to talk about that with each other, for whatever reason (including her just not wanting to listen to any criticism), then I’m not sure there’s much you can do other than avoid her.
Making allowances for her autism would mean explaining why something is hurtful, and talking it through with her (and vice versa). It doesn’t mean just letting her steamroller her way through, doing whatever she wants. That doesn’t even help her in the long run.

Just agree when she gives Autism as an excuse. Agree that she is behaving poorly due to her Autism. Suggest that she should seek out some better help for it and wish her well.
Then leave it.

@Higgeldypickeldy this is all very tricky because it can seem like that with my dc too. Eg one day he might be ok going to a restaurant. Another day he won’t be able to do it. But we have learned that this is when he’s become overwhelmed and learned to trace back little clues - for example, there was loud music as we walked into the road by the restaurant, he was tired because of a late night etc. Austic people are very own agenda oriented and so he would be much more likely to manage a restaurant if it was pasta which he loves rather than curry which I love. He also has huge sensory issues with the smell of certain food.

Can you give an example (without outing yourself obviously) of the kind of thing you mean?

If she is a woman in her 40s unless she has paid for a private assessment as an adult, she is very unlikely to have been diagnosed in childhood or teenagerhood.

What behaviours?
You said she's rude, judgemental, blows her own trumpet but isn't mean or malicious.

What is your theory on why at 40+ she is still hung up on being abandoned at school by her brother (in her eyes) and is living with her parents, if you don't believe she's autistic?

1. Behaviour can be understandable and at the same time unacceptable.
2. Her behaviour is not your problem.

Behaviour being understandable:

• Living whilst autistic in a neurotypical world is bloody hard work and it's very tempting to adopt the "sick" role, especially if there is someone else (like her mum) who will adopt the "carer" role for you.
• Most autistic people will never work (stats in follow-up post) and the fact that she has a job at all is something that she is right to be proud of.
• Masking is exhausting and she's probably dropping the mask around the people she feels safe dropping the mask around. Ironically, her unmasking is a compliment as it's a sign of trust.
• Autistic people, like other disabled people, face a lot of discrimination and hostility. In that context, "my own brother didn't even want to know me at school" just looks like more discrimination. This is also where the "victim" mindset comes from, and this is not entirely unjustified: autistic women are three times more likely than neurotypical women to be sexually assaulted, at 90% of us. (source in follow-up post)
• She may struggle with even recognising frustration, let alone compensating for it. (See: alexithymia, a common symptom.)
• She may get very frustrated when she thinks she's being misunderstood or having an intent ascribed to her that she didn't mean, or at least didn't consciously mean.

Behaviour being unacceptable:

• Her autism and the hardships it causes her aren't your fault.
• Her brother has the right to free association and that trumps her desire for company.
• She can be proud of her job without going on about it all the time, although she may struggle with this (repetitive behaviour is part of the symptom cluster).
• If you find her unmasked behaviour hard to deal with, you don't have to be around her.
• As PPs have said, she is capable of being rude on purpose as well as simply unmasking or failing to recognise when she's becoming frustrated.
• You have the right to tell her that her behaviour makes you feel bad. "What you've just said makes me feel attacked" isn't the same as "you're being rude", which is ascribing intent.

Not your problem:

• You don't have to be around her if you don't want to.
• You could arrange to meet PIL elsewhere whilst she's still living at home.
• You might suggest that she seeks out Access For Work support (focused on work but will help her outside work too) or Cognitive Behavioural Therapy but you can't make her do it.
• Stay out of the "carer" role because it harms you and her in the long run.

I'm in my forties and was diagnosed by the NHS two years ago.

Autistic women and girls were very rarely diagnosed until recently. We had to be so impaired that we couldn't be accommodated in mainstream education before it would be considered.

Part of the problems we face now is that we guessed at our own coping strategies because there was no one coaching us and some of those strategies do more harm than good. Like I can't recognise when I'm frustrated but I also reach for sarcasm as a defence mechanism and don't recognise when I'm doing this until afterwards, so at the time that I most need people around me to understand me, I'm pissing them off.

Nearly 80% of us don't work: https://www.autism.org.uk/what-we-do/news/new-data-on-the-autism-employment-gap

Nine out of ten autistic women sexually assaulted: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9087551/

i do think that a percentage of autistic people are naturally like this, however with support and repetition some can mirror NT two way interactions, although they may feel an element of box ticking. .

What you've described is called "masking".

Yes

I am an autistic person, I'm also a working professional and a mum, and I have to say I am totally astounded by the amount of parents and other adults who excuse what is essentially bad behaviour by using autism/ADHD/insert other neurodivergent condition here.
I'll have my hard hat on when I say this as I expect to get flamed but essentially we need society to make room for neurodivergence and also need to be able to meet society somewhere in the middle depending on what the persons needs and abilities are. For example, most people are able to tell the difference between right and wrong. Most people know it's not acceptable to get their genitalia out in public, in no way is it "their way of expressing themselves" some societal norms just will not bend for neuro divergence, and some children have parents who spend all their life making excuses for them, we need to stop this "oh no, Jonny doesn't eat peas" mentality.

I actually think the even bigger problem is how much his mum endorses, and excuses his sisters behaviour and choices. And is very heavily involved in her life.
I'm surprised at how quickly and easily it feels like we've been ousted from the family group by his mum which is so hurtful, all because he finally called his sister out one night she was incredibly rude to their dad.

This is the main problem and unfortunately unless your MIL is willing to sit and have an honest chat with, and listen to your concerns and react there is absolutely nothing you can do. We are in the same situation and it's hard. By my parents' admission, they let my sibling do whatever they want and fall in with it because it is easier than standing up to them. They have always done it ever since we were children, resulting in her behaviour now. Now DN is diagnosed, they are now saying that siblings behaviour is probably because sibling is too and nothing can be done about it. I don't believe the shitty behaviour is due to autism, it maybe exacerbated by it, but the main reason is that my sibling was a spoilt brat who could do no wrong.

I do not believe that having a diagnosis of autism means you can't be a decent person.

I do not want my DC to believe that because they are autistic, they can never be a decent person.

Therefore we have very limited contact with my sibling and after the last time when things blew up, are unlikely to ever let my DC have contact again.

Judgy, bolshy and rude is very different to being a cunt.

Autism is a disability - would you accept the same from someone who uses a wheelchair? No, I don't think so.

She wouldn't get away with that BS in the workplace op, your dh cannot be blamed for something that happened at school a decade ago - I used to ignore my (nt) sibling at school - completely normal teenager behaviour.

But what did she actually do, this sister in law?
She was apparently rude to her father.
This was called out by her brother, which released a backlash about how the brother has never been there for her and wouldn't even play with her at secondary school.

This is not someone getting their genitals out in public. Being rude to someone is very much in the eye of the beholder, unless she said something like "you are a ridiculous pathetic little man", but as OP says her SIL isn't vindictive or mean this seems unlikely. Perhaps it was more of an offhand rudeness - not thanking someone for a cup of tea, or not saying please, or talking over them, or something that could very easily be done without intent by an autistic person. And rejection sensitivity is very real, as a response based on years of small incremental trauma (and harking back to feelings of abandonment at high school sounds like a response based on deep unresolved hurt).

None of this is OP's problem of course. What is problematic is that rather than move on and see this in any way through the sister's eyes, she is wanting to go back again and find a way to "call out" the sibling for being a twat using autism as an excuse for bad behaviour.

Well the thing is, even if that is what is happening, no, you can't call someone out at an existential level like this and have them say "oh, my mistake, I do apologise" and have peace restored. It will only inflame things further.

They don't have to see the SIL.

It is also one of my biggest fears that my autistic son, who has substantially less insight than you do, will die alone in a rank and disgusting flat and not be found for years. If his siblings can't look out for him, this may well happen. Is it bad behaviour when my son doesn't buy birthday presents for his siblings but they do for him? Because stuff doesn't matter to him much, birthdays are just the day you happened to be born and nothing special, and he is too anxious to shop online as he can't deal with the promotional emails that hit your inbox after? Is it bad behaviour when his brother gets home from uni and he doesn't come and greet him straightaway because it takes him 24 hours to get used to the change? Or when he doesn't say goodbye, for the same reason?

He often behaves in a way that looks rude or uncaring, but makes sense from his point of view. Of course he can also do selfish things, like drink 6 cans of coke bought for the family on his own. And he gets told. But he isn't mean or vindictive.

It's tough and having read some of the really helpful posts, I can sort of see both sides of it.
I think ultimately all you can do is control your place in the piece. So as PP have suggested invite PIL around to yours rather than going to see them. Or go out to a café or restaurant or park.
When she is being shirty maybe have a stock phrase or two to hand that you can use that reflect impact on you/your family and remove yourself from the situation as rapidly as possible. " I'm upset by those words/behaviour so I'm going to step away now". Or something to that effect
Even if it means leaving in the middle of a meal, remove yourselves, either to another room or just leave.
Basically you don't have to accept people being shit to you and you can also understand it may not be something they can easily control. Removing yourself is the best way to handle this I think.
I think your DH could also acknowledge that he may have been unaware of impact of his behaviour on her but also emphasise that there was no malicious intent on his behalf. So "I'm sorry that you felt I ignored you (or whatever) at school but honestly I didn't think I was, I was just hanging out with friends. But I can see that you may have felt that I was being mean to you" or something

@BloodyAdultDC
Your post makes zero sense.
Autism is a communication difference.
Being in a wheelchair is not.
Not all disabilities are the same.
Most autistic people can walk. That doesn't mean that those in wheelchairs are being lazy because they can't. It's a totally different disability!

It is a very difficult situation. However, to start with you don’t actually need to challenge or call out people on their behaviour. It doesn’t usually make people take stock, apologise and change their ways anyway. Not in real life.

Decide your boundaries. If you find her company intolerable then try and avoid it as much as you can. Remember that if she is autistic then a lot of her communications difficulties are outside her control anyway.

I have a family member who is extremely difficult and I have distanced myself from greatly because of her black and white thinking, her victim stance and her inability to see things from others perspectives. There’s not a lot of point in me calling this person out. They just become entrenched in their way of thinking anyway. It is a matter of great sadness for me though.

Good luck with finding a way forward with this relationship.

You say you "think" she is definitely on the spectrum. Does this mean she has not been officially diagnosed?

@Shortandfat believe me, I KNOW about autism. I really do.

It is a disability - and we need to make adjustments to support people in many varied ways - and we need to learn to manage our own expectations and reactions to sometimes shockingly abrupt or askew thoughts and comments and interpretations of the(generally) nt world we all live in, sometimes moreso than for a visible disability.

What I was trying to get across, very clumsily, is that it is possible to have a diagnosis and still be a dick.

It's like using poor MH as an excuse for emotional abuse, or violence - it explains it but does not excuse it. A diagnosis does not give anyone carte blanche to intentionally upset others and not have any repercussions. In op's case her mil is seemingly enabling the behaviours which is not supporting anyone in this situation, especially not sil.

I have multiple autistic family members and it’s pretty much impossible to separate out “this is because of your autism” and “this is because you’re a dick”. Even the professionals we’ve consulted say you can’t do that.

The approach we’ve taken - in the face of some really terrible behaviour - is to be very very blunt and direct.

“I found that rude. You need to say sorry, and you need to agree that you will never do that again. This is what I need from you.”

And then that is your response, you don’t waver from it, you don’t entertain any contact with them until they agree to your terms, you don’t allow any bullshit about its not their fault. It doesn’t matter whether it’s their fault in a cosmic sense or not. You are allowed to also have needs and boundaries and if they won’t respect those they don’t get to be in your life.

I will also say - in slight defence of your mil - that caring for an adult child with this kind of disability is incredibly tough, and it’s also scary when you are getting older and know you won’t be able to look after them forever. She’s not behaving reasonably but she is under huge huge stress herself.

@Shortandfat thank you for your response.
I think that your son does need to meet some societal norms such as gift buying, but that can be assisted by you to begin with. Amazon shopping, mailbox set to divert any "promo" ads to junk box, or a different email for online shopping all together which is only looked at by you.
I think what I was trying to not very eloquently say is if we just say "oh no, she can't do that, she's got autism" all the time instead of trying to teach them to skills to live independently (I was sent away to a specialist residential college to learn) then autistic people with a lot to give to society don't get a chance. I don't know why as a society we say "X can do this, but she needs these adjustments" and celebrate what people can do, instead of cutting them
off with a label before they've even begun.
I hope that makes sense.

What is it that you think she does that isn't primarily related to her being autistic?
Why is it you think she will appreciate the impact on others?

By all means have boundaries. But you are being a bit silly thinking all autistic people can "do autism" in a way that doesn't cause conflict with others.