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Anybody else find CBT and Mindfulness unhelpful?

81 replies

Blackcats7 · 18/02/2024 01:18

I have chronic depression and anxiety and ocd plus newly diagnosed with high functioning autism.
I have tried cbt from two different psychologists and find it utterly unhelpful.
The constant scoring makes me feel under pressure to under estimate my numbers to improve so as to validate my therapist by being a “good” patient.
I also absolutely despair of the way mindfulness is seen as a supposed cure all and feel I will scream if one more person suggests this to me yet again as it has been zero use to me.
I am physically disabled and have chronic pain and the various suggestions for relaxation are things I can’t do due to either physical or sensory limitations.
Is it just me and everybody else finds these things wonderful?

OP posts:
HatchlingDragon · 18/02/2024 09:51

You need a therapist who is ND experienced and has a background in childhood trauma. They also need to use various techniques and assess what could be useful in different situations.CBT has its place but is limited for anything with strong emotional/trauma ties. I know I can think rationally about something and assess the evidence - if due to cptsd I am already in a flight/fight state the CBT just tells me what I already know, makes me feel worse. What has helped was graded exposure ( for something related I absolutely could n't avoid) alongside some life narrative work. This is based on my own experience and from therapy for a ND teen (now adult).

Mindfulness is a struggle for both my ND offspring (weird calling them children as they are adult or nearly so). As pp mentioned find something that sets your mind in an absorbed state so that you can concentrate on that not the rest of your body or thoughts. Both my two have hobbies or activities we have discussed where they get the mindfulness state but hadn't recognised that was what they are doing.

fightingthedogforadonut · 18/02/2024 09:52

"I found mindfulness to be completely pointless and unhelpful. All that navel gazing leaves me cold.

I achieve calm by going for a run through local woodland, where there is no-one demanding anything of me, I can stretch my body's capabilities and I can get some peace.

I have a dsis who retreats to her greenhouse and tends her plants to achieve the same. I think we each have to find something that suits us."

Absolutely agree with what @Meadowfinch has said. Certain activities are meditative in and of themselves and can achieve the same as practising mindfulness. For me it's knitting and embroidery. It makes a noticeable different to my mood.

mynameiscalypso · 18/02/2024 09:55

I have PTSD and mindfulness is very unhelpful. It inevitably triggers flashbacks. I avoid it at all costs.

I found trauma-focused CBT quite useful at the time. For depression though, it was totally useless. My psychiatrist didn't even bother because he knew it wouldn't be helpful. There are other modes of therapy though.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

Princessfluffy · 18/02/2024 10:01

I find mindfulness meditation very unhelpful but mindful activities can be really good.

BaroqueInterlude · 18/02/2024 10:10

ObliviousCoalmine · 18/02/2024 01:28

CBT (for me) was like being taught to try to gaslight myself. Absolute nonsense.

Exactly how it was for me. I think it's useless if your anxiety/depression is founded in actual experience, either past or present.

Pigeonqueen · 18/02/2024 10:17

BaroqueInterlude · 18/02/2024 10:10

Exactly how it was for me. I think it's useless if your anxiety/depression is founded in actual experience, either past or present.

Agree.

I have severe anxiety caused by real experiences with complex medical issues - grounded in real, sudden experiences (life and death) with medical negligence thrown in. I was offered CBT which focused on me trying to tell myself that my anxiety was unfounded / not justified - when I know it was / is. Absolutely pointless and very patronising. Gave up in the end.

MagpiePi · 18/02/2024 10:25

ObliviousCoalmine · 18/02/2024 01:28

CBT (for me) was like being taught to try to gaslight myself. Absolute nonsense.

Absolutely agree with this.

It just became something else I failed at, when I was already feeling crap about myself.

MagpiePi · 18/02/2024 10:28

Princessfluffy · 18/02/2024 10:01

I find mindfulness meditation very unhelpful but mindful activities can be really good.

It used to be called ‘doing an activity’ 🙄

Blackcats7 · 18/02/2024 11:10

Thank you everyone who has answered. It makes me feel a lot better to know I am not the only one.
Now realise I am guilty of drip feeding so apologies but to clarify my physical disability means I can hardly walk as I have advanced arthritis of my spine and hip and a cyst on my spine so I can just about manage a few steps on crutches or further with a rollator.
This means I have lost all the outdoor activities I loved like my horses and being out in the countryside riding and walking. Can’t even manage gardening anymore.
I also have cancer though it’s the arthritis not the cancer which causes the constant pain.
The mental health issues are as a result of childhood abuse and trauma then a truly horrible divorce.
I feel depression and anxiety are normal responses in my situation tbh.
I think I will talk to my psychologist and be honest that I find the therapy unhelpful. It is via NHS and I had said on referral that I didn’t find CBT or mindfulness any use as tried both years ago but it seems they are completely set that this is what they offer.
To me it seems like trying to put a plaster on a gaping wound when it really needs irrigating and then surgical repair.

OP posts:
BaroqueInterlude · 18/02/2024 11:21

I feel depression and anxiety are normal responses in my situation tbh.

It would be strange not to be depressed when all your activities have been curtailed, you are in pain and you have the anxiety of a cancer diagnosis. Flowers

mynameiscalypso · 18/02/2024 11:27

My arthritis isn't as severe as yours but when it was really bad earlier this year and I was pretty much housebound, I found the main advantage of therapy was being allowed to moan without feeling like I was burdening friends and family. Having someone say 'that's really shit' is what you need some time. There was no CBT element at all, just sympathy (plus my therapist also advocated for me but he's also a psychiatrist which helped).

TheSameClip · 18/02/2024 11:32

CBT didn’t help me at all when I was severely depressed, but mindfulness (and in fact other types of meditation) was powerful for me.

It’s not a ‘cure’ by any means, but once I got the habit of a daily practice, it started to have a profound affect on my mood and especially on my anxiety. I wouldn’t call it ‘gaslighting’ at all! I wish I’d known about it decades ago.

WellWhaddayaKnow · 18/02/2024 11:44

Blackcats7 · 18/02/2024 11:10

Thank you everyone who has answered. It makes me feel a lot better to know I am not the only one.
Now realise I am guilty of drip feeding so apologies but to clarify my physical disability means I can hardly walk as I have advanced arthritis of my spine and hip and a cyst on my spine so I can just about manage a few steps on crutches or further with a rollator.
This means I have lost all the outdoor activities I loved like my horses and being out in the countryside riding and walking. Can’t even manage gardening anymore.
I also have cancer though it’s the arthritis not the cancer which causes the constant pain.
The mental health issues are as a result of childhood abuse and trauma then a truly horrible divorce.
I feel depression and anxiety are normal responses in my situation tbh.
I think I will talk to my psychologist and be honest that I find the therapy unhelpful. It is via NHS and I had said on referral that I didn’t find CBT or mindfulness any use as tried both years ago but it seems they are completely set that this is what they offer.
To me it seems like trying to put a plaster on a gaping wound when it really needs irrigating and then surgical repair.

Yeah I think CBT is favoured because it is cheaper and shows short-term results in research (but is not effective long term – the improved questionnaire results for depression and anxiety (their nice measurable metrics) are not lasting. This is talking generally looking at a sample group – there may be some situations it does work for, but the fact is that a lot of depression and anxiety is related to real world experiences and not just random and irrational. It focuses on symptoms rather than causes.

Marcipex · 18/02/2024 11:54

My therapist was really sweet so I tried to please her, I suppose, but yes, gaslighting sums it up.

ScierraDoll · 18/02/2024 11:54

I found mindfulness a waste of time but I did benefit from CBT for anxiety and depression. I never had any scoring at the sessions I went to so maybe there are different types of CBT.
My sessions just focused on breaking the behaviour patterns that made me feel depressed or anxious. Once I knew what the trigger behaviours were I was able to break the circle of destructive behaviours. This probably doesn't help as it sounds that what I did was a lot different from what you are doing. I suppose I'm saying don't give up there will be a therapy out there which will work for you, it's just a matter of finding it

raspberryglace · 18/02/2024 12:19

ObliviousCoalmine · 18/02/2024 01:28

CBT (for me) was like being taught to try to gaslight myself. Absolute nonsense.

That's exactly how I felt about it.

Hagbard · 18/02/2024 12:24

The reason CBT has become so popular is because the "results" can be measured. And you're right, the scoring system ensures the client wants to "improve" to please the therapist.

I'm not sure about any type of talking therapy tbh.

bryceQ · 18/02/2024 12:37

I've practiced yoga, breathwork and meditation for ten years. I'm not an expert but I assume mindfulness has its roots in these eastern practices. they really aren't quick fixes, it's an entire way of seeing and approaching and experiencing life. I have a real problem when I see on Instagram these "breathing hacks for calm" - It's long and slow practice to develop the skills in this area. I don't really think you can dip into mindfulness and expect profound results.

This is absolutely not a criticism of anyone here, it's a criticism of a system that presents them as easy ways to combat anxiety, or stress.

Stress, the nervous system, are incredibly complex and multifaceted subjects of which lots of research is only being done now around the vagus nerve and its role in promoting relaxation.

It's a huge topic

NeverDropYourMooncup · 18/02/2024 12:45

I detested CBT. Why would I benefit from a bunch of badly photocopied and creased worksheets with cartoons and a guided sitting still in the noisy room (with my now-ex standing outside the window) to 'help me' handle 'uncomfortable feelings' when the uncomfortable feelings were that I was being abused? And why tell somebody off for not doing their homework (called that, too) when if you'd asked it was because I'd already had the first degree about what I'd said about him in the previous session and knew if I listed each time I failed to stand up for myself on a piece of paper, it would have been found and there would have been hell to pay? Not that you were allowed to speak of specific incidents - that was banned. It was an integral assumption from the outset that any unhappiness was purely because you were inadequate and entirely at fault for any negative behaviour from others, not that you were perfectly reasonably reacting to a barrowload of shit that you didn't deserve.

I also despise the commercialised form of mindfulness. The actual practice as taught by a Buddhist who also had autoimmune arthritis was great in dealing with pain/the fact it's going to be there (although that could just be because I'd never had anybody say to me 'yes, it's shit' instead of banning any thought or mention of it and instructing me that it meant nothing, it's all in my mind and look at paralympians, they don't let their disabilities bother them, do they/it's all about your Growth Mindset/why aren't you as positive and joyful and able as the world class athlete of caring, well off parents?) - but the buzzword version is utter shite on a par with 'think pretty thoughts and pretend it isn't incredibly painful to sit absolutely still on a plastic chair for five minutes in silence with somebody looking at you'.

What you're going through is shit and you have lost so much.

Is there any way you could claw back some of it in a different way? You're not being abused by parents or (hopefully) ex anymore? If you've had horses, then practically, do you have the income to look into any form of carriage driving, having horses cared for by a stable with disabled access where you can be with them, outside? Could a robust, all terrain wheelchair be within the scope of possibilities?

Are you trapped inside? I could imagine that being unable to get out would be bringing all those feelings about being trapped with abusive parents and ex to the front of your mind. So perhaps it is finding a way of being outside that will help - access, movement (electric wheelchair?), transport? Is your home actually accessible and could you move around it and get out of it when you want?

Would houseplants be a way of gardening that's more manageable?

If your reply is 'but it's not the same', no, it isn't. But could it help you get some of the pleasant feelings?

LazJaz · 18/02/2024 12:51

CBT doesn’t work for me - not at all
generic mindfulness isn’t all it’s cracked up to be
however meditation in groups - ie taught by a teacher - plus a little sertraline- that’s really helping me.
meditation is very different from “mindfulness” in my
opinion but they do get lumped together a lot.
if you have access to a meditation teacher in your area it might be worth exploring.
really sorry that you’re going through a hard time

MaggieBroonofGlebeSt · 18/02/2024 12:53

ObliviousCoalmine · 18/02/2024 01:28

CBT (for me) was like being taught to try to gaslight myself. Absolute nonsense.

Is that 'journaling' etc? Yes agree - horrible. I think CBT might work for a specific issue like a phobia but if you have serious depression, that's an illness and
I think a lot of counsellors etc are ambulance chasers to be honest. It's all exploded in the last few years but I'm very sceptical.
I went to a talk on the menopause and one of the counsellors said if you're having a bad week, rearrange your work meetings. How is that helpful? Yes in an ideal work that'd be great but reality is it's not that simple.

Malarandras · 18/02/2024 12:54

I found some elements of CBT helpful. Mindfulness I cannot do, my brain just cannot compute it.

mypafology · 18/02/2024 12:57

CBT often isn't helpful for those with autism. Challenging thought patterns when your brain works in a particular way can be impossible.

That said, with all you have going on, I don't think CBT would help anybody. I hope life gets easier for you Flowers

Shamblestoo · 18/02/2024 12:58

bryceQ · 18/02/2024 12:37

I've practiced yoga, breathwork and meditation for ten years. I'm not an expert but I assume mindfulness has its roots in these eastern practices. they really aren't quick fixes, it's an entire way of seeing and approaching and experiencing life. I have a real problem when I see on Instagram these "breathing hacks for calm" - It's long and slow practice to develop the skills in this area. I don't really think you can dip into mindfulness and expect profound results.

This is absolutely not a criticism of anyone here, it's a criticism of a system that presents them as easy ways to combat anxiety, or stress.

Stress, the nervous system, are incredibly complex and multifaceted subjects of which lots of research is only being done now around the vagus nerve and its role in promoting relaxation.

It's a huge topic

This is true. There have been studies are the benefits of mindfulness, but these studies are of serious practitioners.