Cultural differences Scotland and England

[CauleyMacGlochlin]

So surprised to see on a recent thread that in England secondary school pupils are often not allowed out of school for lunch until 6th form, which Google tells me means 16-18. I'm gobsmacked. I've never heard of anything like this in Scotland and I've lived all over the country (grew up in Glasgow and moved around in adulthood)

I also recently discovered that English school pupils can't leave education at 16. They have to stay in education til 18 unless they have an apprenticeship.

Got me thinking about cultural differences between the countries that I've maybe been oblivious all this time. Any others?

Erm, not everyone. My MIL talks about reading the local paper and if someone had a “Irish” name then she’d stop reading because she’d assume they went to one of the Catholic schools so she wouldn’t know them as the school system was so separate (didn’t even play against the local Catholic schools’ sports teams). She is 82 though and grew up centrally-west. In Edinburgh the question is far more likely to be trying to gauge how posh or otherwise you are (my DCs watch people’s smiles freeze a little when they answer the question 😆).

Loving this thread! Making me want to visit Scotland now - I've never been.

Londoners do, at least in relation to driving. Distances lose all meaning when it can easily take you 45 minutes to travel 3 miles.

Yes, I find this appalling. TAs (PSAs here) expected to teach when they're paid almost minimum wage is morally wrong. I actually sent an email on Friday to my union rep objecting to our PSA being asked to take a group (secondary) due to staff absence. It's the first time I've ever seen it & am appalled. Of course, the PSA did it as they didn't want to rock the boat. She works her arse off for way less than half of what I earn. It's an awful practise & I sincerely hope isn't creeping in here (our newish HT is English- although he's been here 20 years- & I suspect it's something he's in favour of).

Have I not heard on here of a scheme in England where TAs can become teachers within 2 years or something? Apologies, as I don't know the details & I may be completely wrong. So, they wouldn't be graduates?

Well, of course, there is the classic thing that Aberdonians are supposed to say “You’ll have had your tea?” .

The point being that they are allegedly too mean to feed you! (Apologies for offending any Aberdonians, not saying I believe it!)

That would signify that there is a meal called “tea” eaten there.

When I was young we ate both “tea” and “dinner” in the evening. My Mum used to talk about the difference quite a lot. I think it was really that times were changing, and people ate less at lunchtime so were moving towards a larger meal in the evening and terminology was changing with it. She said it was “tea” if she was serving a lighter meal, often accompanied by a cup of tea- so maybe something like egg and chips, or a fish or chicken fillet.

”Dinner” was bigger and heavier- spaghetti, curry, shepherd’s pie, casserole.

At school people had school lunches but served by “dinner ladies”. We never called lunch dinner.

On Sunday we had “Sunday Dinner” which was a roast, served at about 3, never called it “Sunday lunch”.

Supper was tea and toast at bed time.

There is no way to qualify as a teacher in England without a bachelors degree. Schemes aimed at recruiting non-graduates involving studying for a BEd or BA alongside any teaching practice. This would only be possible in two years if the entrant already held a qualification such as a Higher National Diploma which could be ‘topped up’ to a BA.

Have I not heard on here of a scheme in England where TAs can become teachers within 2 years or something? Apologies, as I don't know the details & I may be completely wrong. So, they wouldn't be graduates?

Well, obviously some TAs will already have degrees. A TA without a degree will have to do a training route which involves getting a degree, usually a BEd degree, which gives you Qualified Teacher Status.

Thank you for that explanation. It makes it very clear.

Is it 'topped up' to a degree in education, rather than a specific subject? I understand that for primary, but is it still the same for secondary? Here in Scotland you must have a degree in your subject to teach it on secondary.

Due to this, it's not like some schools in England where you can teach subjects not your own for the first years of secondary. Is this still a thing? I heard some time ago that you can be asked to teach, say humanities/ games to 11-14 year olds if you have any degree. I taught in Australia 25 years ago & was asked to do this; they were surprised when I said no as it was standard practise there & the English teachers concurred.

I suppose it's just so different as it's only one route for secondary teaching in Scotland: degree in subject plus PGCE (1 year) then 1 year probation.

Primary is either this, or a 4 year BEd.

Well, for a start some TAs already have degrees and are therefore graduates…

However as pp have said any programme like this will require the participants to study for a bachelors degree as part of it.

Well, of course, there is the classic thing that Aberdonians are supposed to say “You’ll have had your tea?” .

Personally I’ve only ever heard that phrase used for people from Edinburgh, not Aberdeen.

It’s breakfast, lunch and dinner in my part of Scotland.

Yes, in primary it would be a BA in education or a BEd. I can only speak from personal experience for secondary but from the TAs I know who have undertaken teacher training they have already held a subject specialist degree or had significant industry experience in eg woodworking / metalworking / computer programming before doing a BEd with QTS.

Yes, it’s possible to teach outside of your subject in England. Subject knowledge enhancement courses are available but there is also a professional expectation that a qualified teacher will study the necessary knowledge to teach a separate but usually related subject. It’s unusual for this to occur above Key Stage 3 (years 7-9).

Due to this, it's not like some schools in England where you can teach subjects not your own for the first years of secondary. Is this still a thing? I heard some time ago that you can be asked to teach, say humanities/ games to 11-14 year olds if you have any degree.

Yes, theoretically they can make you teach pretty much anything. I'm an MFL teacher and taught English for a whild, despite not having studied it beyond age 16.

My Gran would call the kitchen the kitchenette, I'd think that's from the tenements where the kitchen was the size of a cupboard off a bigger room?

She also called trousers 'slacks', the cinema the 'pictures', don't know if these are Scottish or local/class based.

Calling children weans (west coast) or bairns (east coast).

It wasn't (isn't?) just schools and football that are divided by sectarianism, if you had a first name that indicated a certain heritage eg Michael, Kevin, Patrick it wouldn't be safe to go into certain pubs.

Some schemes are still very much 'one or the other'.

Scots call splinters 'skelfs'. Woodlice are slaters I think?

Smashing is a word of Gaelic origin but I think it's used in England too?

'Down South' to Scots means England even Cumbria/Northumberland. But 'up North in England means anywhere north of the midlands.

Scots would 'plat' their hair, the English would 'pleat' it.

Chicken Tikka Masala was invented in Glasgow to cater for the Scot's' sweet tooth.

Historically Scottish witches were persecuted much more than English ones. The Reformation came to Scotland first and the Church of Scotland remains much more distinct from Catholicism than the Church of England (called Episcopalian in Scotland). The wee frees still practice Sabbatism.

The Scotttish criminal justice system for adults is harsher- more prisoners, more police powers etc but was slower to modernise sex offences etc.

Children's rights are greater in Scotland. Age of criminal responsibility has recently been increased from 8-12. Kids go to children's hearings rather than court. Then can get married without parental consent from 16.

Scottish state schools are more uniform. None are as good as top English state schools but none are as bad as the worst.

There is a more egalitarian philosophy. It probably comes from the prevalence of flat/tenement living rather than terraces/houses.

Scottish public sector pay is better, so with lower house prices you can have a much better standard of living in Scotland as a public sector professional.

The same. That’s a phrase used to make fun of Edinburgh, not Aberdeen.

Something else that really shocked me when I found out about it is this gazumphing galumphing thing that's allowed in the English housing market. I think it's bloody despicable.

Asking 'how?' or 'how come?' in Scotland when you mean 'why?'

Stay used in Scotland to mean live ('where do you stay'?)

Realised only recently that the word stank isn't used for a drain in the road in England (only took me 10 years 😂)

Squint used in Scotland to mean not straight, again took me a long time and a lot of strange looks to realise that's not used in England.

I think oose is maybe a Scottish word (my English partner doesn't know it).

And are wedding scrambles a Scottish thing? Remember that from my childhood (1980s) but maybe not done any more?

And even within (as opposed to outwith🤣) Dundee the accent varies wildly from unintelligible oary to perfectly normally spoken English!

You see, this makes me shiver. Why do these pupils deserve less? Their knowledge is developing, this is when they deserve to be taught by someone who has deep knowledge & passion for their subject. Our unions are really strong & would never allow it, I believe.

I too had no idea 'stank' was Scots until I was explaining a driving accident to my English friend. This was 15 years ago, when I'd already been teaching English for 14 years 🙈.

I LOVE the word oose.

Another personal favourite is jobby. Nothing describes someone like a 'wee jobby' does.

I agree that it’s an unfortunate symptom of a buckling system and we are really struggling to recruit and retain teachers in England after thirteen years of systematic underfunding.

I do wonder though why highly qualified professionals would be content to stay for their whole career in an academic lane that they chose at seventeen. Does the Scottish system support lifelong learning if a teacher wants to pursue a new subject? Would they have to study for a second degree?

Or how no (why not)

Hmm. I don’t know the answer but our Latin teacher also taught Classics (mythology etc, an elective at my school but no exam in it) /
as well as Philosophy (I think there were exams in that one) and the usual RME (religious and moral education).

Or the classic classroom game jobby! Haha fun times.