> £4,000pcm nursery fees

[MidnightPatrol]

For those of you paying this, how bad is it? How do you cope?

I am hoping to have a second baby but it’s going to cost ~£4,200pcm (ignoring any future fee increases…!) in childcare for a year or two.

Slightly terrifying, particularly in context of higher interest rates / higher cost of servicing a mortgage when I come off my low interest deal next year.

Child welfare as in that in order for your child to be cared for that level of time it's a financial decision.

Your child is not away from you because of child welfare, ie because of their needs. It's because of financial ones.

I accept I will be biased due to the areas I work and have worked in but I do not know of any children who would manage that with BOTH parents.

Those that do have a nanny, flexi time, grand parents, swop one day with a friend, pause career to be with the child, move out of town to reduce costs and do there longer days, etc etc.

I had my 1st in 2020, my 2nd in 2022 and my 3rd at the end of 2023.

We have small age gaps and I didn't have to change jobs/career.

However, we live in Birmingham and pay just over 1200 pounds for 2 children for a full time place (after 30 hours and 20 % tax free childcare are applied).

You live in one of the most expensive cities in the world, OP.

That's why I asked upthread if could move outside London.

But I cannot think of a single family who operate like that BOTH parents. really? It's the most common set up in my circle - apart from families where they've both condensed their hours into 9 days.

The unusual aspect is the cost and the lack of movement.

Don't have the second child, or do, but it keeps coming back to the wanting it all.

So either income needs to increase to fabulous levels, or you pay the fees, or you don't have the second one, or you take a little time out and do.

It's the fact that everyone has said the options and none are suitable other than reduce the cost of childcare.

Yes I genuinely think you should consider leaving london

The cost isn't unusual in London though.

What's wrong with OP attempting to reduce the cost of childcare? A Nanny share was a good suggestion by pp if OP feels it will work for their family.

I had a nanny growing up and was lonely and bored as hell, day in, day out. Sure, my parents thought it was better keeping me in a homely environment and having one key carer but I was miserable as sin.

My nursery kids, on the other hand, have genuine best friends they see every day, and are mega social, outgoing and comfortable in any company. And we have a stronger bond than I had with my own parents. Your perception of which kind of childcare equates to better “welfare” is subjective.

There's nothing wrong, but so many suggestions have been made and there is no right answer. Perhaps it is me but OP just seems to say no it should be cheaper end of to every suggestion.

@User0224 I've o issue with the type of childcare, i am saying that if you wish to work those hours, in that place, that is what the cost is. A MN is not going to be able to produce a magic nursery with half price fees.

The point about welfare was the decision being made is a financial one not a welfare one. For example a child needing a specialist school and parents having to work all hours to fund it.

@lmhj1 it should be cheaper, the government should provide greater subsidies to help parents.

Putting two children in nursery should not require an £80k+ salary just to cover the fees.

To be fair, some suggestions will depend entirely on OP's circumstances such as she can't 'wrangle' family to help if they don't live in London, going part time could hurt her career progression and moving out of London would be a big deal, something that shouldn't be decided just because MN said so.

I had my babies in my late 30s and there's a year and half between them. If you're on a good salary, it's doable. I was spending all my salary on nursery fees but the children were happy and I got a break at work and felt I was being useful in a different way and so I was happy too. It is what it is as a parent. And, I wouldn't touch nannies with a barge pole- not after hearing some of the shit my friends had to put up with and reading about the CF nanny stories on here.

I agree with you, it should be.

My sister lives in Germany and she only pays a small among of money each month to send her daughter to Kindergarten.

Yes and they pay much higher taxes.

Yes and they don’t seem to
mind. And everyone pays higher taxes - rather than our expensive childcare system overly penalises working women. I mean pretty much every single country (bar the US maybe?) has cheaper childcare - maybe the governments prioritise it more.

Do people in France and Germany complain about high tax? Would love to hear from any posters there?
Scandi countries do more shared parental leave. There are lots more ways our government could help. Yet it’s sad to see our options are more ‘freeze your eggs’/ ‘wait until you’re 40 and eldest at school/ only have one child/ give up work.

This is why nothing changes!

And does your sister moan about higher taxes? Or is she just happy with the system?

Can't believe the flames or stupid suggestions you're getting here OP. I totally sympathise. We are Zone 4/5. Nursery fees would be £3,500 pcm for 2 children however DH and I have access to Tax Free Childcare and will eventually get the free hours for working parents. Though my fees aren't as high as yours will be, our salaries are obviously less than yours so the sting is the same. It is going to be a SQUEEZE to say the least but we followed the suggestions I made to you upthread. It is so hard for professional women to thrive in the work/fees cycle. Do not delay your family because of money. You can't bank on falling pregnant when your finances align. Just go for it. Feel the squeeze. Accept the joke that is our system where high earners contribute a lot to the function of our socialist society and get little support themselves when needed even in the short term.

You can absolutely complain!

OP didn't ask for suggestions of how to get it cheaper. She asked for people in a similar situation to discuss how rubbish it is 😒 I think sometimes people on MN have small minds. 'If my life is like X then everyone has to be the same'.

It would be absolutely worth it.

Still doesn't add up anywhere close, unless they're working 7 day weeks which presumably isn't done.

@AngryBirdsNoMore are you sure? When I lived in Germany a few years ago my total deductions in Germany: 33%, UK 31% (including NI) a German payslip also has deductions for pension contributions, health insurance, unemployment insurance, and old age care.

It is cheaper outside of London however the 30 free hours and the 20% tax fee savings are not applicable for higher earners. Add them back in and while the cost will of course be lower it’ll be nowhere near as low as the figure you’re quoting.

and has been very cagey about the total family income and doesn’t want to make any compromises.

I think it's obvious that OP doesn't intend to make any grand life changes (totally fine) or want to disclose her income (why would she). She just wanted to rant/find empathy.

Assuming they both earn £100k each (which I think is incorrect, I think they a fair whack earn more or OP would have engaged with the discussion about pension contributions being increased) and both have a student loan and both pay into a pension, they bring home £4800
per month per person.

They don’t have to live in central London to just because they work there especially as the OP says she can work from home, maybe only occasionally but I don’t know as OP didn’t say . There are easily commutable places into central London that don’t cost a bomb. Appreciate she may be living now where she’s living but it’s a choice.