Misgendering worry

[Cariolaxc]

Any advice please. I retired last year and started volunteering for a charity in September, working in their office part-time a few times a week to give finance admin help. I love it, it's a charity I care about, everyone is great to work with.

One of the staff moved to a desk closer to me and is really nice to be around. We've had a few chats, all good. Except that I referred to them as 'she' to another staff member, and was kindly told that their pronouns are he/they. I've been on edge since, being really careful about what I say when mentioning them in a conversation, but on Friday I slipped up and said that 'she' had been very helpful and they heard me. Jumped to correct myself immediately, apologised profusely and they told me not to worry. However - I don't know how to stop myself doing similar again, in a casual conversation when I've relaxed. Mentally I'm aware of his preferences and bearing it in mind. Visually - I see someone who does not look masculine at all. He looks like a young woman, has a feminine hairstyle, wears trousers, blouses - women's clothes. He also has two very young children that come into the office every now and then. Even his name is one that is used by men and women alike.

I'm really upset about this, to the point I'm thinking of standing down as a volunteer. There is this really nice person who I get on really well with, but I'm in danger of really offending them at some point. When I stay alert I consciously remember to use the right words. It's when I'm relaxed, as I was on Friday, having a casual chat and my 65 year old brain reacts to patterns that I've learned since birth - I don't know how to stop that happening. It's the sort of stuff that ends up in the tabloids if it goes wrong. I don't know why I'm even asking really, just so worried, I think I know what I'll do.

People are obsessed with feelings way too much

I wouldn’t really worry about it. If you choose to have pronouns that totally don’t reflect the reality of the situation, it’s hardly your fault if you get it wrong from time to time. I wouldn’t give it another thought, presumably this happens all the time to them. “He” sounds understanding and pleasant about it.
As for the they/thems, although I would be polite, I wouldn’t bother myself too much - again, if you make up a totally new presentation for yourself, you can hardly expect everyone to just go along with it. If I started demanding that I was called Your Highness, I could hardly get annoyed if people forgot sometimes.

Despite what you might think from extremist TRAs, most people are actually quite reasonable.
If they can see you are genuinely trying to get it right and you apologise, reasonable people accept that.

It certainly is very odd.

@popebishop · Yesterday 20:40

'This person is a woman who presents as a woman when it comes to to clothes/appearance in general but want to be referred as 'he''? That would really be very odd.

It's not really odd - for the best part of the last 10 years parts of the LGBTQ community have been claiming that gender is how you feel inside and nothing to do with how you appear outwardly. You might wish to express your gender through typical clothes, but you might also be gender non-conforming.

People have assumed that "trans" still only refers to people that want to be the opposite sex, but it's now about redefining what "man" and "woman" mean. That's why lots of people are speaking up about it.

It's illogical, because to have a "mismatch" between sex and gender you have to also believe that there is something female about a woman and something male about a man, but that's why people are confused about what it all means. You can of course be a feminine man, so possibly what the person in question feels like.'

I am part of the LGBTQ community myself and calling a woman who presents as female and has given birth to children as 'he' will always seem ludicrous to me.

I also don't need anyone to define or redefine what being a woman is or isn't for me...

I don't put any limitation on myself because I am female or buy into any stereotypes of what a woman should be/how they should live. Never have.

Also how does she know how a man 'feels'? every man is an individual and again I don't believe the stereotypes that all men behave/think/feel the same because they are men.

People should worry less about trendy labels and pronouns and instead focus on just living their lives and being themselves without the need to stamp a pronoun on it.

If someone use the wrong pronouns to refer to them that's hardly the end of the world...

I agree @Startingagainandagain and many LGB people do as well.

Several years ago I became aware that this was what "trans" now means and have been asking the same questions you raise. Gender is different from sex (yet they are used interchangably when it suits). Even Stonewall won't say that being gay means being attracted to people of the same sex - it's same gender, which is to do with how you feel as a person.

I thank God that I live in a country where this absolute crap is not a thing. Here we have men,women,girls and boys,homosexuality is not illegal but not 'in your face' and everyone just gets on with it. It's kind of like how the West was before all the madness took over. It's a nice place to live and I think I'll stay here for the rest of my days.

It's really not easy to swap pronouns in your brain after a lifetime of using them. If this person doesn't realise that it's their problem. Btw you get to decide how to use pronouns in YOUR speech. They can use the pronouns they want to use in their own speech. That's fair.

This crap isn't going to end until people say "no, I'm not going to pretend that reality doesn't exist".

Aren't you all exhausted from all the pandering? Dunno about you all, but I spend my energy on MY life, not someone else's.

I feel like it’s already dying down a lot. My teenage kid rolls his eyes when he hears “what are your pronouns” and I figure once the teens start to lose interest, the issue has moved on.

Among those teens for whom it was a fad and about attention it certainly has. (I'm not talking about people with actual gender dysphoria)

Teens lose interest in the latest anything once their parents start getting into it. It's the ultimate 'uncool'. Can't show how rebellious, right on, individual and protesty you are if your mam is right there waving a placard with you.

It's why all social media eventually loses the youth. Once your parents are on FB for example, it's the last thing kids want to be seen on.

This.

My experience of young women who dress like women but identify as men is that often there is also ASD involved. I also find that they are very far away from the TRA's and just trying to quietly get on with life and hope that people will be nice. I think a chat is a great idea and they will probably really appreciate your understanding and supportive nature. Definitely don't give up your job!

Oh I couldn't and wouldn't be doing with treading around glass and egg shells for something I wasn't even paid for and certainly not in retirement.

You worry too much, OP.

You speak the way you've always done it and use the pronoun of their choice when you remember, and when you don't just let it go.

It's people who try to offend by deliberately hurting someone they worry about. Not everyday people who accidentally use the wrong pronoun. Someone who gets offended by accidentally misgendering is out to draw attention to themselves and importunate others. With those I don't even bother to try, life's too short.

Well, the poor devil is off with flu now, so no updates. I'll have that friendly chat with them. Probably won't be much more to say on this thread, thank you very much for your thoughts.

p.s. I don't think it's worrying too much, or something to be ignored. I've been specifically asked to refer to this lady as if she was a man, so I think it's fair to take that into consideration.

'I've been specifically asked to refer to this lady as if she was a man'

I would suggest then that you only use this person's name when referring to them rather than a pronoun.

As in 'Jane was one the office yesterday. I asked Jane to help me with this spreadsheet'.

I know you like this charity but I would really suggest volunteering somewhere else if they continue to focus on this.

This person is biologically not a man nor does she present or live as a man.

I would have no issues using pronouns like 'they' or 'he' when the person has obviously chosen to present as what they consider to be male or a combination of male and female, but I draw the line at calling someone 'he' in this type of circumstances.

She isn't a man though. The sooner everyone just stops pandering to this nonsense the sooner it will go away.

And there speaks the voice of reason👏

For anyone who would like an update - I'm out. Friday is my last day volunteering. Someone else in the office was told off publicly for using the wrong pronoun - when the woman/man in question wasn't even present.

I immediately stood up, made myself a cuppa, then went to see the manager and give them a week's notice. I just said that it wasn't really working and I felt they were asking too much of volunteers - which is true. I kind of objected to being asked to fill in a 'leave chart' - which I completely ignored. My partner and I are lucky enough to have holidays and interesting things to do. I wasn't prepared to have someone trying to dictate when I'd be able to have time off. 😂

Good for you, OP. What a load of bullshit to inflict on anyone, especially volunteers.

That’s the joy with volunteering you can just leave.

I have misgendered someone recently, it was voice comms in a game. I belong to a woman only gaming group who also accepts people who ID as women. We had been warned a man would be in the game chat, that’s fine I game with men though some women don’t want to at all, online harassment of women in gaming is still rife. So I do not know any of these people the group has been set up online. Someone speaks while working out how we are going to do this very complicated mission. I say well he is right or something like that and another person agrees with yes he is totally correct. Turns out one of the women is someone who ID as a woman but they have a very obvious low male voice. I assumed the male voice was the actual man that was joining who admitted to being a man! The person that kicked off was their mate, a woman and she was so angry. I think she thought it made her very special and far more sophisticated on some sort of made up level in her own head. The actual person that ID as a woman said nothing and was perfectly pleasant. We didn’t complete the mission I was just helping as had completed already, I didn’t accept a return invite.