Misgendering worry

[Cariolaxc]

Any advice please. I retired last year and started volunteering for a charity in September, working in their office part-time a few times a week to give finance admin help. I love it, it's a charity I care about, everyone is great to work with.

One of the staff moved to a desk closer to me and is really nice to be around. We've had a few chats, all good. Except that I referred to them as 'she' to another staff member, and was kindly told that their pronouns are he/they. I've been on edge since, being really careful about what I say when mentioning them in a conversation, but on Friday I slipped up and said that 'she' had been very helpful and they heard me. Jumped to correct myself immediately, apologised profusely and they told me not to worry. However - I don't know how to stop myself doing similar again, in a casual conversation when I've relaxed. Mentally I'm aware of his preferences and bearing it in mind. Visually - I see someone who does not look masculine at all. He looks like a young woman, has a feminine hairstyle, wears trousers, blouses - women's clothes. He also has two very young children that come into the office every now and then. Even his name is one that is used by men and women alike.

I'm really upset about this, to the point I'm thinking of standing down as a volunteer. There is this really nice person who I get on really well with, but I'm in danger of really offending them at some point. When I stay alert I consciously remember to use the right words. It's when I'm relaxed, as I was on Friday, having a casual chat and my 65 year old brain reacts to patterns that I've learned since birth - I don't know how to stop that happening. It's the sort of stuff that ends up in the tabloids if it goes wrong. I don't know why I'm even asking really, just so worried, I think I know what I'll do.

OP is really not making too much of this. Women have been harassed, bullied and intimidated for not 'properly' pretending that people can change sex. It makes perfect sense that she wants to protect herself from the modern day witch hunts.

Please don't worry about this tedious narcissistic bullshit.

OP, I know a few trans a non binary people and all of them, every single one, can tell the difference between an accidental misgendering and a deliberate jab. It's a tabloid myth that trans and gender-nonconforming people will be furious and try to 'cancel' any person who accidentally gets it wrong. Non binary people or those who don't 'present' obviously as how people think of their identified gender (or who don't identify as a binary) especially know it's very hard to get used to and can totally tell the difference between someone nasty and someone making an honest mistake.

I am confused. Are they a woman who looks like a woman wears women's clothes but for whatever reason want to be called he?

They don’t sound like they mind though? You’re the one making an issue. I use they pronouns but don’t find it hugely offensive if someone forgets, just chill

Is it a man or a woman though?

Is it a woman that looks like a woman but wants to be called a man, or is it a man dressing like a woman and passes well?

Curious to know what their kids call them?

I keep a written list of pronouns for people in my life. I have it in my phone so I can pull it out and refresh my memory as needed.

When I slip up, and I slip up often, I have stopped profusely apologizing. It’s going to happen. My brain is going to say she or he even when I know with certainty they prefer something else. typically realize it as I’m saying or just after. I just do a quick correction, “oops they” and keep talking.

I honestly think it is worse if you make a big deal out of it. People seem ok with my approach, imperfect, but obviously trying.

yes, in theory, you shouldn’t have to worry about this at all, but if a coworker decided to start going by Beks instead of Becky, you would make that switch even if you messed up occasionally, so I treat this as the equivalent.

This person is really nice, accepted a genuine mistake and you get on well.

Why would you think about stepping down from something you enjoy, when there wasn't an issue when you didn't use their preferred pronouns?

Stick to using their name if you can't wrap your head around the pronoun thing.

I keep a written list of pronouns for people in my life. I have it in my phone so I can pull it out and refresh my memory as needed.

Wow

My brother calls himself non binary. Everyone, everyone, just refers to him and he and, gasp, he will never know.

He doesn't get to dictate my perception of him. I wouldn't go out of my way to hurt him in front of him but I'm not going to walk on eggshells either.

Just to be clear, is this person actually a woman? If so how could it ever be offensive to call a woman ‘she’?

It’s so sad that you’re terrified of being vilified in the press and leave a job you love because of someone else trying to control your speech, it’s utterly selfish and self absorbed of this person to ask that of you.

I'd love to know how they now teach pronouns in the early years.

Are you serious? You have a list in your phone for all your contacts/friends pronouns?
Everyone I speak about is a he or she according to their sex. How can you forget a person's sex.

Just say "Lee/Susan was really helpful." And always use their name.

Bit silly though if they dress like a woman to expect people to know to use "he". Worlds gone mad!

It's so damn hard to call a single person 'they'
It goes against everything we were taught about writing.
I honestly wouldn't worry too much. Due to your age, people should be more understanding if you were in your 20s then it would be expected you cannot assume someone's gender based off appearances 🤦🏼‍♀️

I couldn't work with that person, personally. I'd spend all my time there expecting to be dragged in by HR.

This is precisely why the "choose your own gender" fad is impractical as well as deeply regressive. Your issue with remembering the pronouns has nothing to do with your age. Pronouns are meant to be automatic - we clock a person and our brains fill in the rest. Asking you to call someone "he" or "they" who is clearly female and not even attempting to look masculine is no better than me asking you to please never use the word "the" again because I've decided it offends me. No-one can possibly dodge these unnatural tripwires in every interaction. It's an unwinnable conversational game designed to set people on edge and force them to self-censor.

What's rich is that the type of person who sets this unreasonable expectation must have very little empathy to expect everyone else to constantly monitor their own speech in this way, yet thinks everyone else should have limitless empathy for their apparent gender struggles. However nice your colleague may seem, I'm afraid I have my doubts about any grown adult who expects this level of coddling and compliance from the world around them. It's narcissism, arrested development or both. Note that you are already falling over yourself to apologise to this person and fearful of the consequences of making another mistake - a nice person wouldn't put you in this position.

@Echobelly I think the issue is that trans and non-binary people are people like anyone else: most will be totally chill and appreciate people’s good intentions and a small but impactful
minority will be thin-skinned and vexatious. And currently workplaces (particularly charities & HEIs) are coming down hard on anything that could conceivably be considered a transphobic microaggression, intentions notwithstanding. So the anxiety may be more to do with the organisational response should the person turn out to be a vexatious type, than an assumption that a trans / NB person will be vexatious.

I am confused by this.

This person is a woman who presents as a woman when it comes to to clothes/appearance in general but want to be referred as 'he''? That would really be very odd.

Or is this a man who looks completely female?

This all sounds very confusing...

Usually people who use 'they' tend to be androgynous/gender fluid

Frankly I would find it odd to refer to a woman who just look/dresses like a woman as 'he'....

I keep a written list of pronouns for people in my life. I have it in my phone so I can pull it out and refresh my memory as needed.

lol. Do you now.

This is why the whole pronoun thing is so stupid. It’s just a way to perpetually wrong-foot people and demand attention and compliance.

It’s her problem, not yours. If a woman looks like a woman, then she can’t expect people to realise she “feels” like a man. Particularly if she’s done the most biologically female thing in the world: conceived, gestated, and birthed children.

Slightly derailing but I work for one of the major banks. I've just had 2 weeks off and loved every minute. But have to admit that the past few days I've been filled with dread at the thought of returning tmrw because they are so into all of this bollox.
I know that minute I log in tmrw, my intranet home page will either be telling me I'm racist or transphobic. I've hardly slept because of the constant anger I feel at the stupidity of these people and I dare not say anything for fear of losing my job.
Clearly I'm not alone in these feelings.
I keep hearing the story of the Emperors new clothes going over in my head

Well, thank you for the thoughts. I'm going for the having an open conversation with him option. Nothing to lose. Yes, he was perfectly fine when I slipped up on Friday. I need to know that if I do it again it won't cause offence.

To answer other comments - a young woman, dressed in womens clothing, including trousers, has a couple of young children. Identifies as male, chooses him/his/they etc.

Personally I don't need to keep a list to know who wants which pronouns. I know what this person has chosen and can remember fine. It's just in casual conversation it's easy to slip.

They/they are indeed alternatives, but it's going to take just as long for them to come naturally as he/him. It's like 'where's x gone?' 'oh, she's just popped out to lunch. Aaargh! Sorry, I meant he's... oh dammit!'

Anyway, thanks very much. I don't look in here constantly, so if the discussion continues please don't tell me off for failing to reply quickly. :-)

Do they identify as male or as a man? Genuinely not nitpicking but male is physical sex and "man" is supposedly a gender which is a separate thing from sex (so you can have a female man, for example).

This person is a woman who presents as a woman when it comes to to clothes/appearance in general but want to be referred as 'he''? That would really be very odd.

It's not really odd - for the best part of the last 10 years parts of the LGBTQ community have been claiming that gender is how you feel inside and nothing to do with how you appear outwardly. You might wish to express your gender through typical clothes, but you might also be gender non-conforming.

People have assumed that "trans" still only refers to people that want to be the opposite sex, but it's now about redefining what "man" and "woman" mean. That's why lots of people are speaking up about it.

It's illogical, because to have a "mismatch" between sex and gender you have to also believe that there is something female about a woman and something male about a man, but that's why people are confused about what it all means. You can of course be a feminine man, so possibly what the person in question feels like.