How far do you go with "enforcing" good manners?

[Illbefinejustbloodyfine]

For want of a better word. Dc2 - I am really struggling with the tone of voice and manner he uses.

He just wanted something that was behind dc1. He said , in a kind of aggressive tone "give me the X, get off it" . I asked him to try again. He said "GET OFF IT".

So we enter into this back and forth. You can have it when you ask for it in a reasonable manner. He knows what I mean. "Can I have the X please/please could you pass the X" any variation thereof. He just absolutely refused to. While I find it infuriating, I left it at "you can have it when you ask nicely" but he will not stop back chatting.

This is just one example, it can be multiple times a day.

People say ignore the bad but really?? I should ignore this? To me that gives the impression that it's acceptable.

Hes 6.

Things like this I just do as you have. He can have it if ask nicely. Stand firm on this, he knows what is expected especially after you have corrected

Things like sitting nicely at the table, talking with food in mouth, remembering to hold a door open etc, I remind if they're not doing it and model the same, but don't push it and just hope they will grow to use the good manners the rest of us do

Rather than ask him to say it nicely. Ask him is there another way you can say/ ask that? And then stick firm with that.

DD1 is 4. I am very firm on being spoken to rudely. I simply will not get/do anything if the request comes in a "I want X now!" or "give me it now!" form, because I won't be spoken to that way. I also never speak to her that way.

I enforce it just by looking at her and saying "sorry?" and she generally rephrases. If she's in a grump and doesn't, I just leave it until she asks nicely. Sometimes I'll say "I know you know how to ask more nicely than that". I don't get into a back and forth, if she's just yelling rudely I basically ignore it.

you could just say "no" and then put the thing where it can't be seen or used for a while.

Or you can ignore and pretend you don't hear, only works if everyone else does it too including other DCs. You can have a rule that unless people ask nicely - barring certain circumstances such as warning of danger "DON'T TOUCH THE IRON" type of thing - you don't have to give them what they want/do what they ask for. (this forces you to do the same under nearly all circumstances)

Thanks, I do say "can you try again please" or similar. If I say "sorry? He will often just look at me.

The oroblem is, I get "you're just being mean" back.

I am firm with this, I dont let it go. It doesn't get any bloody better.

Yes, state your expectation to be asked politely and then ignore anything less. But also always remember your own p’s and q’s to them and any conversation in their earshot.

Manners are important to me. It's tricky because if he asks/demands of dc1, and gets a "no" warfare will ensue.

I wouldn't ignore it either, especially not at 6 when they are old enough to know exactly what you mean.

I used humour, "sorry, I don't speak Whine/Shout" then I'd mime not hearing. Or "nice try" with a smile. If you keep very calm and happy model just waiting without any stress, it becomes less fun for them.

And you asked how much you enforce. With some things (table manners) I enforce more in certain places and at certain times. Speaking nicely to people, all the time.

Who says 'ignore the bad'? I've heard that for young toddlers - distract and redirect rather than discipline - but that's because they literally can't understand. I completely agree with you that ignoring it doesn't seem appropriate for a 6 year old. I say more or less exactly what you say to my five year old. My pet hatred is the passive aggressive 'I'm hungry' rather than asking for food so I just don't respond to that until he asks properly.

I disagree slightly. People hate being corrected and forced to perform. Your job is to teach him how to behave, it’s his choice to actually do it. You remember Parry and Kevin? Each child sounding like an angel to the other family, and being a grunting strop monster at home.

Most of us get bad tempered and defensive when we’re challenged and put on the spot. Better to model ‘nice asking’ back to him, so pass it to him saying ‘you mean please could I have that toy please’ as you hand it over.

On other occasions mention it’s important to speak nicely to people.

He’ll learn.

I'd tell him as a parent it's your job to teach him how to be polite.

There's a way people expect others to behave and if parents don't teach their children this they are doing them a disservice. He's old enough to understand this in basic language.

For example that people won't like him if he's rude so it's your job to teach him not to be.

My child is like this. He's got adhd. sometimes it's not actually within his power to ask for something nicely - depending if he's overstimulated, overwhelmed, overtired, already in a really bad mood - sometimes i need to let the tone of voice go, and just get him to actually say the words so he gets at least half of it right. If i try and force him to ask in a nice tone AND use nice words, it can lead to a proper meltdown, (because he then has to calm himself down before he can ask, and that's something most NT 6 year olds don't know how to do, let alone one with Adhd) over something that i know he can and will do perfectly well when he isn't "overwhelmed/overtired" etc. so i do correct him but i don't insist on perfection.

Obviously your child may not be ND. But this works for me. Manners are learnt over time. He won't get it right 100% of the time at 6 years old.

Also ... Mine really struggles if the answer isn't the one he wants - ww3 very likely to ensue if his sibling says no.

At only 6 I think you're making too much of this.

I'd focus much more on modelling and a light-hearted response.

You're giving him a stick to beat you with!

Manners are important, but also life is short and he will learn without the arguments if you are less combative yourself.

Model back exactly how you expect him to phrase it maybe? All very well saying that he knows full well what you expect of him but TBH at 6 they just forget or are a bit thoughtless or are digging their heels in, just be explicit about what you expect each and every time so that there is no room for misunderstanding. It will take a while to sink in and it's infuriating but at his age there is still so much to learn about being a considerate person in relation to the wider world. I doubt he's inherently rude, he just hasn't grasped this particular societal skill yet which isn't unusual as he's only 6. Honestly, I think sometimes we expect too much of little kids, there is so much for them to learn and it takes time and consistency to get there.

@Girlsjustwannahavefundamentalrights yes, the right words would be a step forward. Not ND as far as I know but I'm no expert. It's like he just enjoys exerting control!

@SutWytTi I'm not combative , and try to avoid it descending into an argument.

Most kids , if you give them a reminder, will say please/thank you. It's like he just refuses.

If I ask him to rephrase, he'll say "no" and shrug. If I say "pardon?" He'll repeat himself, word for word, with a bad tone

I want my child to learn manners, but I also want him to learn that it's not OK to speak rudely to me just because I'm his mother. That's why I don't let it go - it's not just modelling how he should behave, it's also modelling how you should expect and accept being treated. I've seen what happens to children - especially male children - who grow up seeing their mother as bottom of the pile and it's not what I want for any of us. I'm the only female in my house and very conscious of the messages sent if I become the service human.

@RancidRuby I do often remind myself that he is only 6. He's so clever, and generally socially advanced, people often think he's a couple if years older and have done since he was tiny (massive baby, tall child, early walker/talker) . But again, if I say in a pleasant voice, "did you mean x,y,z?" Hell just say "no".

@Hardbackwriter this is it, you've said exactly what I think. I'm sure its relevant, I'm divorced, he can't remember his dad living here (left when he was a baby) sees him a few hours a week. BUT he used to speak to me like shit. And continues to speak to his parents that way (in front of the DC)

Don't pose it as a question then, just say you need to ask <insert polite request> please. Rinse and repeat.

I always stood very firm on manners, even when it felt as if I was shouting into the void. DS is 16 now and has beautiful manners - we get so many lovely comments from people when we're out with him. It's definitely worth the effort.

Just be consistent. If you're too stressed sometimes it's ok to let it go. Main thing is watch your tone, that's where they tend to get their habits from. So be firm but pleasant, the way you want him to be. I have anxiety really bad so this is my main issue. I don't even realize how I sound until I hear my little parrots! But yeah I am also really insistent on good manners. I always tell my older DD to be sweet to her little sister and she'll be sweet back. Some kids are more aggressive though and need more reminding. Testosterone and anxiety both contribute to the aggressiveness, it can be tough to work through it, especially for boys, and it isn't their fault at all. No idea why your son is giving you so much grief but hopefully you can crack it!

That actually puts a whole new slant on the situation. His dad is modeling rudeness to him so it's going to be a battle to counter effect this, I'm sorry that must be difficult to deal with. I think my advice remains the same though, all you can do is to just keep modeling 'good' behaviour patterns and be consistent with it.