Looking for parents that have been in this situation, please help

[OneWayTicketAwayFromHere]

DS has speech and development delay and an ASD diagnosis.
He is in Year R and ever since he started he has been a nightmare at school. Hitting, kicking and throwing things at others. These behaviours have been a few times towards other children but the majority of them are targeted towards the teacher.

Every time someone challenges him or asks him to do something he doesn't want to, he reacts in the ways mentioned above.

The school is at loss and don't know how to handle him. Nothing seems to work from what they tell us.
They are now asking us (DH and me) for advice at what we do at home when he is acting that way.
Here is the thing... he doesn't do all that at home! Yes, if he has to do something he doesn't want to he gets all stroppy and angry, cry, throw himself to the floor etc but it doesn't escalate to such violence!

In a few weeks time they want to see us to have a talk about the situation as they think this is much more than his autism diagnosis and that he has serious behaviour issues.

I am concerned that they are fed up (rightly so of course) and they want to kick him out.

I am just so drained and upset. We have removed favourite toys/tablet as consequences. I have tried talking to him, explained why his behaviour is wrong, that we don't hit others etc etc, but it goes from one ear and straight out the other. I have asked him why he did xyz, how he is feeling, what he is thinking but due to his delay, I never get an answer.

He just looks at me and cries appearing all remorseful and he will say sorry, but that's all I get from him. Open questions never work with him. If I ask a yes or no question I might get a yes/no answer, but by that point he just picks one and sticks with it. So if I ask something ridiculous like 'did you paint Mona Lisa?' the answer will be "yes", 'did you go sky diving with the teacher?' 'Yes'.

Please, if you have been in the same boat with your child how did you handle it? How did your school help? Did it ever get better? I am terrified that if he is like that now when he is 5, how he is going to be when he is a teen?

I'm sorry that you are all having such a rough time.

I don't have any real experience of this kind of thing. My eldest has asd among other things but we haven't had the same experiences at school. (Other issues though).

I'm just wondering, as he doesn't do this at home if he is just really struggling to cope in the school setting? Was he in a nursery prior to reception? If so how did he cope there?

Has the school put anything in place to support him? Is there a quiet place he can go to if upset? Does he have ear defenders if it's too noisy, fidget toys etc. Do the episodes at school have a pattern/particular time or place that they happen? If so can they be avoided?

Have you had meetings with the school SENCO?

Hi OP

If he gets the support he so clearly needs he will be much better as a teen.

In kids with ASD escalation to violence means that they are dysregulated. They are upset/anxious and cannot calm down.

It is likely that he finds either you or your partner or both of you calming, probably because you have a relationship with him, and so his emotional dysregulation does not get as far as violence.

Can I ask, did he go to pre-school or nursery? How was he there?

Also, does he have an EHCP?

In terms of how the system works, in order to get the support your son clearly needs the school need to demonstrate that the normal system isn't enough for him.

Him being violent is actually good because it makes it very clear that mainstream isn't currently working for him and there will be lots of evidence for this.

If school get fed up of him, as you put it, they have various options. They can exclude him temporarily, for a few days. That means he isn't allowed to come into school for a few days.

The good news is that they have to document this, and again this then becomes evidence that he is not coping in mainstream and either needs TA support or a special school.

They can also exclude him permanently. Again, this means that they are saying that they cannot meet his needs in mainstream and is therefore excellent evidence that he needs additional support.

If they do exclude him permanently the local authority has to find you another suitable school (I think within 15 days but I could be wrong) and if they can't they need to provide an education for him which may be specialist tutors at home.

Was he in a setting before school? Is he used to a class full of children? Is the environment causing sensory overload for him? Then he is being pushed over the edge by adults that he probably still doesn't know very well making demands of him. This has often been the case with the children I work with. My DS is autistic but he just withdraws. He thrives when he knows what is happening, visual timetable, now and next board and from bery regular breaks. The school use a total communication approch and his day is structured with a short demand then a break but only once he is regulated.

I have a daughter with ASD and she was having a very difficult time when she was around 7 (at home though mostly - this was during the lockdowns). She is extremely articulate and although she has some classic ASD-style issues understanding where other people are coming from, her comprehension is excellent.

It's only in the last year or two she's been able to describe her feelings.

I think it's unreasonable to expect your 5 year old to be able to!

The school sound crap. Have they asked the LA for advice? What's their safeguarding plan say? Have they applied for an ECHNA? (You can if they haven't)..

My son was the opposite - “fine” at school but really difficult behaviour at home.

I would suggest that school looks at and implements PDA strategies - very low demand, low arousal.

The PDA society has some excellent resources.
Dr Ross Greene’s book The Explosive Child may also help.

My dd (ASD) can be like this when severely overwhelmed - I don’t think it’s unusual for a child with autism who is in the wrong environment/not being adequately supported.

my dd doesn’t really know why she does these things, it’s a meltdown, a complete loss of control.

School shouldn’t be asking you for help, they should be contacting council, relevant professionals and asking them to come in, observe and make recommendations.

It is a sign that the provision isn't right for him. Ask the school to get some advice about what they might try to ease the situation. Does he have
1.1 support
A place to go which is quiet where he can do something to regulate e.g lego or whatever might work
Ear defenders if noise is a trigger
A visual timetable showing what he will be doing
A now and next reminder
Timer to show how long he needs to work for

It could also be that mainstream isn't the right provision. My dd was in mainstream with lots of the list above. It unravelled. When she eventually moved to specialist her behaviour improved massively because the environment, curriculum and approach was tailored to her needs.

@Newuser75 and @Octavia64
Thank you so so much for responding.

He was at nursery since the age of 2-ish and went to their pre-school room as well. From the first settling session he had there, he went in and didn't even look back. No tears, no crying. Waved bye bye to us and in he went with his key nursery person. He just doesn't seem to be attached to us as you see with other small children and their parents. I went away for a family wedding back in my home country for 5 days in September and he didn't once cry or ask for me. When I was video calling he was happy to wave hello and there was no emotional outbursts and asking me to come home.( I remember at similar age being inconsolable if I was away from my mum for more than 2 days).

At school he goes in just fine, if anything he runs up front and wants to be the first that walks in. Sometimes he won't even wave goodbye.

At nursery/pre-school we had a few incidents where he would throw tantrums and try and hit a nursery teacher or another child but they were maybe once every few months. In general they seemed to love him there, but I suspect the reason why he did ok was because they would leave him alone and not push him to do school work or stop him from playing. Those seem to be his triggers. Latest incident, he was outside playing at break time. Teachers called all kids back in, he refused to go in. Of course he was told he is coming in and he exploded. Attacked the teacher. All incidents seem to have a similar pattern.

He has ear defenders which they use when needed. They have been putting him to isolation with a teacher after terrible outbursts.
There is a senco at school but apart from the very very intial introduction before he started school, we haven't seen her again.

We appied for an EHCP last year but we got turned down, we appealed and got rejected again. Currently, he has no ehcp.

I think it’s not a bad idea for a school to ask parents what works in managing behaviour at home, but, in this instance, his behaviour at home is not causing the concern that it does at school.

I think you should request a meeting with his teacher and the SENCo in the school and develop a strategy for working with DS. I think you should request a needs assessment (EHCNA) so that he can be observed by professionals with a view to getting the support he needs.

If he has a temporary suspension, the school should be providing work for him and in the event of a permanent one, it’s the same. The LA then has to provide education for him until another school can be found, or alternative provision.

But before all of that, a joint approach to managing his behaviour in school needs to be looked at whilst you look at applying for a needs assessment and ultimately EHCP- Education, Health and Care Plan.

It does sound as though the school have limited experience of children with this type of need.

Sorry, I’ve just seen your update about the EHCP.

The thing that really stands out for me from your OP is that you are trying to use rewards and consequences for a child who is overwhelmed.

With ASD, when a child is angry and 'loses their temper' etc, then it is more likely that they are actually having a melt down which is much closer to a panic attack. They cannot cope with the environment and they have no way to express that but by lashing out, or withdrawing.

Most kids with ASD do not respond to rewards, because they cannot help their melt downs.

melt downs may be dramatic, or they may take the form of a hit or kick.

The school are not handling him as a child with ASD, he needs an adult trained in that to help them put tactics in place. But initially the issue is that he is overwhelmed at school.
It may be the noise, the other children, the demands on him, or whatever.

You need to school to ramp up their support. Either until he is happy, or so provide evidence that he needs another setting.

Having issues with dealing with transitions is very common for children with asd.
What are school suggesting they put in place to make these transitions easier?
Does he get verbal and maybe visual warnings that these things are about to happen? Visual ‘now and next’ boards. Do they use visual timetables? Bring him in 2 minutes early with the carrot of a high value reward? iPad time/story/colouring whatever. Do they have a quiet, safe space for him to retreat to if he needs to? A calm down space? Using 2 simple choices ( both of which re acceptable to the adult) eg you can choose- sit on the carpet with the others/go into your tent for 5 minutes. Use of timers to show how long something will take. Sensory toys. Sensory breaks. All of these are basic things an ed physc would suggest they try before much else will be done.
When he a has a tantrum at home how do you respond? How is it dealt with and how does he bring himself round?
They need to catch him before he spirals.
Asking him why he does it, taking away toys will be unlikely to be helpful at all.

just seen your update.
so he may need a count down to change of activities - 5 minutes til end of playtime etc. Sand timers are very good for this because they count down visually.

100% to all this

It sounds to me like you understand him and manage his behaviour really well at home. It's almost impossible for a teacher to replicate this within a class of 30, with a timetable to follow.

He would probably cope very well with 1-1 support, which would enable him to have some flexibility with regards to precise timings and expectations. Maybe documenting these issues will unlock that funding (you'd have had more chance 20 years ago unfortunately).

If the funding isn't there for 1-1 support, then the school need to look at making some reasonable adjustments. There may be some situations where they could just leave him be (if he wants to play quietly with the bricks instead of doing Phonics on the carpet). There will always be some non-negotiables, like they can't leave him playing outside on his own, and he can't be distracting others from their learning, but if there are fewer confrontations throughout the day, he might handle each one better.

If nothing else, he needs a safe, quiet space he can take himself to when he's overwhelmed.

Don't bother with consequences they won't work.

(Clearly he doesn't have the understanding for them to be useful).

What is worth working on (with school) would be a few things:

Lower demands on him. Clearly, if at nursery you suspect they basically left him alone then he isn't used to co-operating with adults.

Work out something he does want and start rewarding him for co-operating with adults so you start getting some level of positivity.

Transitions - you can get sandtimers that are 30 secs 1 min 2 min 5 mins. Start using them at home so he gets a sense of how long they are. You can also use them to earn him of transitions eg in 5 mins you can have the tv on.

Now and next board is also good.

How is his speech & his understanding generally? Is he able to access anything in the classroom if he chooses?

Thank you everyone for your replies.
To try and answer some more queations.

No EHCP, no ECHNA. As far as I am aware the school hasn't applied for either. Whether they have asked for advice from other sources or not, they haven't said.

They have put up now and after timetables/flashcards but I am guessing it's not working or they have not been using them. I think a sand timer is being used as well, as one of the objects used to hit the teacher was the timer, so I am guessing that's not working either.

They have offered rewards. I.e. if you do abc you get to play with xyz toy. It doesn't work.

They have said that they are unable to teach him at the same time as other children as he copies the behaviour of other children with additional needs that are in his class. (They might make loud noises and he will mimick that creating a disruptive environment) so him and the other kids get a 1-1 teaching time.

I know a few posters mentioned about the struggle with transitions. At home though he seems fine to just get up and go. DH will be sitting on the sofa, he will get up say he needs to go buy xyz from the supermarket and he will ask DS if he wants to come. 99% of the time DS gets up, put shoes on and off they go. It's always the same if we are leaving the house. We never use timetables. Admittedly, his max limit of being out is around 1 and a half to 2 hrs before he starts getting frustrated and irritated by everything around him. Keeping him fed and watered seem to help the irritation and when he was younger holding a toy car was also a distraction.

At home, early on we discovered that indeed bribing did absolutely nothing, if anything it made the situation worse as he still expected the reward without having to do anything to earn it.
Threatening to take his tablet away (and removing it if we have to) seems to have an effect as he loves that thing. He will still glare and get angry but he seems to just about be able to control his outburst.

In general, if he has a melt down at home he seems to bounce back quickly. If he has done something bad, if we tell him to go to his room he will drop his head down, start crying, say "ok" and walk upstairs to his room. 15 min later it will be like nothing happened and all is forgotten.

He started swimming lessons a few months ago and the swimming pool has a children's play area. After his lesson he would constantly make a b-line for that (it was closed and you need to pay extra and book anyway). He would scream and shout over and over wanting to go there. I had to basically pick him up and carry him away to the changing rooms. Eventually, I started telling him, "We need special tickets, ok? I am going to buy special tickets and then we can go another time, ok?" That seemed to appease him and I have discovered that if I use 'ok?' at the end of my requests he can't help but agree back and once he responds 'ok' it's like a switch goes off and he calms down. Doesn't always work, of course.

Someone mentioned PDA and I have come across this term on MN before and after some googling I have actually wondered if he falls into that category as he was ticking some boxes.

His speech is not the best. If he is in a good mood he can be chatty but half of it, isn't easy to understand. If he isn't in a good mood getting him to talk to you is impossible and all we get is yes,no,ok and single words. Reminds me a bit of a teenager who can't be bothered with his parents. If he needs anything like water, food, toilet he is able to ask.
He will understand simple commands and sentences but anything more complex and he looks at you blankly.

I am unsure about his level of accessing things at school but I can ask at the meeting

Thank you for all the suggestions.

speech - many autistic kids find communicating much more difficult when stressed. or even go non verbal.

Do remember that at school he has a whole extra layer of coping in place before he starts dealing even with the most basic thing. A bit like a bottle of coke, when it is a quarter full and you shake it, it doesn't explode. When it is three quarters full (that additional background stress) and you shake it, the top explodes off.
You are also more tuned in to him without even realising it, so instinctively you will give hime space, or a calming activity, like when you say he manages 2 hours max out, so you work round that. School don't know him instinctively.

Also, the transitions you mention are choice ones, as opposed to enforced ones - do you want to come to the shops? His choice, no pressure, he can stay at home.
-you have to stop what you are doing and come in to class now. He has to stop what he wants to do, and do what he is told.

The most basic thing with PDA is giving a choice rather than a demand. Ds do you want to take the box of toys in for me, or walk in by yourself? Do you want to do your reading first or your phonics cards? Do you want to sit on the carpet with Tony, or by Mrs Smith?

The now and next timetable is no good on the wall somewhere. It has to be shown to him and talked through at every change. So - playtime - ds no we are going out to play. Can you tell me what happens after play? Yes that's right, maths time. Then when you come in the same thing, let's take off the play picture, that has finished. What is it now? maths, great, and let's put on what comes next - pe. Lovely now let's go and do maths.

It is really time consuming, but it does work.

Linked to the now and then could be a task list for the day. These 5 things are going to happen today, and when you have done them you can remove them, tick them off. If one of those is free play, and then he has done the free play, then you can refer to the list and say - Oh you've done that one, so which other one are we going to do?

Also, wrt him copying behaviours from other kids. He will not know that THOSE behaviours shoudln't be copied, but that THESE behaviours should. That is quite a subtle difference. It needs spelling out. When Jonny does xxx that is not a good thing and not something to copy. But when Mark does xxxx that is a good thing a a good thing to copy.

But to be honest, without teachers on board who get it and have some experience, they just are not going to to it.
Like my friend's son with ASD who struggled with change and they had an exciting fun sports even one day, no warning, and it didn't occurr to any staff that he needed a few days warning and prep and talking through the day.
When he melted down at lunchtime they suddenly went - oops.

Thank you so much everyone. I really appreciate all your comments.

In general, I feel in some ways that he seeks to be in control and hates having someone telling him what to do. If anything he seems to love telling others what to do.

When he was younger if we were out he wanted to have the say of where we were going. If we entered a shop he would drop on the floor screaming and crying. He still gets annoyed and says 'no' if we head to a road/direction he doesnt want to but thankfully not as bad.

He seems to want to do things on his own terms. If I say we need to study our sounds and phonics he refuses, tells them wrong on purpose, pushes the books away etc. Then the next day he will sit on the table on his own with zero prompt from me doing his phonics and getting all the sounds right. Sometimes he will come over to me with his phonic cards and start basically teaching me and encouraging me to give it a go. When I read out the letters he praises me saying I did a good job.

At the playground, I told him it's dangerous to climb up the slide and he should just go around again. Another kid tried climbing up that way and DS run up to him telling him, no no it's dangerous. It's not the first time he has been told he can't do xyz and then if he sees another child doing xyz he goes to tell them off.

He is obsessed and I mean obsessed with being first and winning. He perceives everything as winning or losing. Climbing down the stairs in the morning, he always wants to go first. If DH or I ignore him and continue going down he bursts in tears sometimes crying out that he lost. We have never made the stairs a game! So no idea why in his head it's so important. I have had chats over and over that he can't always win, it's ok to lose etc etc but it makes no difference. We play games, if i am winning he will say game is over, he will get up and remove the game aeay from me saying no more.

I just don't know anymore what's your average 5 year old behaviour, what is spoiled child behaviour and what is part of his asd or something else.

He can be so much fun, smiley and affectionate but at the same time he can be a nightmare to handle.

loads of your last post is ASD behaviour.
Rules rule the world in many ASD kids heads.

A lovely very, very clever girl I know with ASD - super selective grammar, got 12 straight 9s in her GCSEs etc etc.
Age 13, I had a conversation with her, she had a friend but she struggled with this friends because the school rule says no eating in the classrooms, but her friend eats her sandwiches in the classroom. How can she like and be friends with someone who breaks the rule?
I had a chat with her about school rule, and how they trun a blind eye at times, and what the purpose of the rule was (clean classrooms) and did the school care as ling as that goal was reached? And also about friendship and expectations etc. It was a wonderful conversation but funny and sad in equal measure. She is rigidly bound by rules. Some real, some imagined, some moral. She could no more eat inthe classroom than murder someone.
So other people breaking a rule (especially one like don't climb the slide, which is not obeyed by all) is awful and you have to tell them they can't.

Control, especially being in control of your immediate surroundings is also really important, when you don't really understand how and why the NT world works, then you need to understand at least this bit around you.
Along with control routine is really important. Simple routines can give th eillusion of control and be very calming and reassuring. They can alos become rigid boxes that cause melt downs when not obeyed.

and needing to be first and winning - yes I know a lad who was like that. I can't remember what his mum did to help him (she is the most amazing mum of an ASD kid that I know) Along with needing to be first, he also struggled with getting things wrong, so 10 spellings, if he got 9/10, he would have a melt down of pure distress because of the one wrong. That one took a long time ot unpick, and it was veyr hard in school. She worked really hard with him over 'things we know' and 'things we are still learning'

I know that I don't know him, but giving him what he needs for his autism is not spoiling him. It is you being a great mum giving him the structure and support he needs. Think of it like - giving him glasses so he can read isn't spoiling him.

Thank you so much @steppemum for your posts

I have no idea how good they have been with sticking to the now and then cards and timetables. I know they said they have put that in place to try it out.

I will try and make a version for what you are suggesting at home and see how it goes. I do think maybe at home we don't challenge him enough hence why he finds school harder.

If I ask him to tidy up he normally refuses, I tend to give him time or I just shrug and start tidying my own things ignoring him. He will then run to me saying that he wants to help.

You started with 'Here is the thing... he doesn't do all that at home!'

However as you start to give more examples it sounds at if he does-it is just a different situation and presents in different ways.

You have an ASD diagnosis for him. When was this done and by whom? What specialist services does he access ? (SaLT, OT, paediatrician?). What advice have they offered to the school? Did they supply specialist advice/reports for the EHCP? You say that you applied but were turned down- did you apply alone or with his nursery ?

You need a meeting with the Senco. You need to share all of his reports and information and then work with them to put some day to day strategies in place. A shared approach between home and school would be the best approach.

Please don’t punish him - he’s not being autistic on purpose! Read up on PDA.