Christmas office parties with a diverse workforce

[mids2019]

Work forces have a diverse range of religions within the workforce. In my role I now see that there is maybe a little.questioning of how to frame the Christmas do as Christmas is a festival originated by Christians and so may feel a little exclusive given we do not have a departmental organised Eid or Divali celebration. Should the office Christmas do be reframed as the end of year party slightly divorced from Christmas as a celebratory period? (The office do also brings question of whether an alcohol fee venue may be appropriate which can get a bit contentious.)

YABU.

Nobody goes to the work Christmas party to celebrate Jesus.

Almost like we're actual human beings and individuals, wow.

I mean this is a crazy idea, but maybe non-Jews should just stop making sweeping statements about Jews period?

We are not a Muslim country and he is attending in his role as FM

Hang on a minute, our exchange began because you implied some sort of hypocrisy, and if people were forced to take part in Hanukkah it'd be a different story. I countered that because nobody on this thread is suggesting people be forced to partake in Christmas. You've accused me of having an imaginary argument based on that, you've told me to fuck off, you've implied I'm a bigot who believes "evil minorities are stealing Christmas" and you've told me I'm disingenuous because "of course" this discussion is rooted in anti Jewish rhetoric. None of that is true.

Also if you're going to scold me on replying to you whilst also making more general points.. I'll just take you back to the post where you replied to me and the first thing you said was "are you Jewish? No? Then don't speak for Jews" (on a post where I didn't mention Jewish people at all 🙄) then later said "I'm not saying 'you' are trying to speak for Jews." If you weren't directing it at me why did you directly ask me?

Tbh with you I can't keep up with you and your long accusatory posts. You're a grown woman, living in present day Britain. Feel free to observe or not. Some people will enjoy themselves, some people will do their own thing, others will huff and puff about Christmas parties 🤷🏽‍♀️

It's a party in the winter. The religious aspect is celebrated by practising Christians

To the poster who said hold it at a vegetarian restaurant to cater for veggies, that's discrimination against meat eaters. I want a proper Christmas dinner all the trimmings not some veggie shite. There's always a veggie option at normal restaurants. You dont see that accommodation at veggie ones for the meat eaters.

*Almost like we're actual human beings and individuals, wow.

I mean this is a crazy idea, but maybe non-Jews should just stop making sweeping statements about Jews period?*

Quite.

Perhaps this is another crazy idea, but maybe traditional-Christmas-celebrators should just stop making sweeping statements about people they assume don't want to celebrate it?

I did work for a company who did this.

They had a summer BBQ with no alcohol. This is because their offices were on very scenic grounds which couldn't be properly enjoyed in winter. They invited every person with their family who had any contact with the company. They also started the event in the afternoon which meant people with children and carers could attend.

Legally eating meat isn't a protected under the law like being a Vegan.

So you (and I) aren't being discriminated against by eating meat.

I have extended family members who are practising Christians who don't celebrate Christmas. As a PP said Easter is their event.

I'm a bit confused by the first sentence. Is it supposed to mean that being a vegan is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010?

It comes under belief, so that a vegan can't be denied employment or accommodation, for instance, because of being a vegan

It doesn't mean hospitality venues have to provide vegan options by law. Most will, in order to attract customers.

Nor does it mean that vegans can object to hospitality venues of caterers providing meat, if that is their / their customers' choice

And in real life, most British Muslims will eat vegetarian food if in a non-halal restaurant. No drama.

Perhaps you should be having Eid and Diwali events for those at work who wish to have one.

I don't believe in denying Christmas because some don't celebrate it or are of a different faith. Much better to have celebrations for other faiths as well.

Not every vegan will be protected either tho.

But yeah. Veg restaurant is not discrimination. Annoying, absolutely. Would I go? No. But not discrimination

Absolutely.

Inclusivity in tjis sense is about including others, not deleting your own.

Hang on a minute, our exchange began because you implied some sort of hypocrisy, and if people were forced to take part in Hanukkah it'd be a different story. I countered that because nobody on this thread is suggesting people be forced to partake in Christmas. You've accused me of having an imaginary argument based on that, you've told me to fuck off, you've implied I'm a bigot who believes "evil minorities are stealing Christmas" and you've told me I'm disingenuous because "of course" this discussion is rooted in anti Jewish rhetoric. None of that is true.

I have no idea why you're so determined to pick a fight with me but you do realise anyone can look at the past posts and see that that you're lying?

For example, I absolutely did not say "if people were "forced" to take part in Hanukah." Anyone can look at my post on page 7 at 11.56am and see that that is a lie. Because what I actually said was, "If people were expected or pressured to take part in Hanukah". Can you please explain why you decided to swap the word "expected" for the word "forced"?

Our exchange started because for some reason you decided to take offence at me sharing my personal experiences of being pressured to celebrate Christmas and suffering racist comments and other negative consequences fo, and me pointing out that SOME Jews do regard Christmas a religious holiday and dislike the "but Christmas is secular" argument being used as a way to pressure them into celebrating. Your response was to tell me that I needed to "accept that people have the freedom to celebrate Christmas" whether I "liked it or not". The reason that's offensive is that your post implies that I am not currently accepting others' right to freedom, or that I have a problem with people celebrating Christmas, which I obviously don't. Nothing in my post implies that I have any kind of problem with other people celebrating Christmas, nothing in my post indicates I have any issue "accepting" that other people celebrate Christmas.

Then you claimed your post wasn't aimed at me when you literally cherry picked one sentence from my post and copy pasted it out of context and then wrote "if you like it or not you have to accept it" directly underneath.

Another example, you've repeated stated "no one is forced to celebrate anything they don't want to" when others have said, yes, they have personally experienced being forced. What gives you the right to claim other people are wrong about their own personal experiences?

I'll just take you back to the post where you replied to me and the first thing you said was "are you Jewish? No? Then don't speak for Jews" (on a post where I didn't mention Jewish people at all 🙄)

The entire reason you started ranting at me in the first place is because I posted about my personal experiences as a Jew. And you might not realise it, but insinuating that a British Jew needs to be educated about their own country; that a Jew needs to accept others' religious freedom (implying that Jews aren't already perfectly happy to accept that); implying (then later outright stating) that I dislike or have a problem with Christmas and Christmas celebrations when I don't; denying my personal experiences, all those are antisemitic dog whistles.

Would you have said ANY of that if I wasn't Jewish?

This is from my very first post. Please, please point out what suggests I'm obviously uncomfortable with Christmas parties, and need to learn to accept that others have the freedom to celebrate Christmas whether I "like it or not"?

"SkylinePigeon · Today 11:56 First, I want to start by saying that of course Britain is a Christian country, we have Christianity as our official state religion, it's ludicrous to live in the UK and object to the celebration of a Christian holiday, and I certainly have no issue with Christmas or Christmas parties.

Celebrate Christmas however you like! But don't pressure others or tell us that it's secular."

Who would have thought "celebrate what you like how you like, just don't pressure others" would be so controversial!

@SkylinePigeon to take us back to the OPs original question could you answer the following questions (obviously you don't have to celebrate Christmas if you don't want to, and I'm sorry you've experienced racism because of your choices).

Would you go to a midwinter party that wasn't called a 'Christmas Party'? Would a name change make you happy to attend?
And would you celebrate Hogmanay and New Year if in Scotland (which as I said earlier became the big secular midwinter celebration because the Calvinists think Christmas is not a celebration day)? I should point out the big street parties are not a true reflection of Hogmanay, I grew up in a rural community and it's very much about spending time with your family, friends and neighbours.

I agree with @SkylinePigeon that no one should feel pressured into celebrating anything in any workplace. The social events you do or do not attend should certainly not be impacting on your career.

It's up to the individual in our workplace, you can choose if you wish to take part in the secret Santa, ward buffet (which has mixed cultural food), and Christmas party at a hotel.
For example this is the first year I'm doing secret Santa (I'm a bit nervous as I know it can go wrong).
And there's no pressure to drink alcohol. Half of us don't drink including me, and I'm going to be the sober one at the Christmas party (most non drinkers don't go).

Sorry to be clear - definitely no one should feel pressured to celebrate anything with certain religious connotations when they are not even of that religion!

I don’t know who you are arguing with, but these long posts aimed at one specific person are kind of derailing what was an interesting thread. It’s a waste of time arguing with such big blocks of text that no one is going to read 🤷🏻‍♀️

It will get to the point where we all just get a barcode, shave our heads, wear the same outfit and identify as Person <barcode>. That’s what is happening here. Rather than celebrating all the festivals, people are being pitted against each other in the name of inclusivity. It will get to the point you can’t say or do anything without the risk of offending somebody.

We remain diverse and strong by celebrating and respecting all cultures. Christmas is a big thing here, just like thanksgiving in America. It’s part of our cultural identity and we are happy to join in other celebrations that our friends have like Diwali and Chinese New Year.

I don’t know who these people are trying to cancel Christmas but it’s definitely nobody I know and none of our diverse mix of friends. We enjoy learning about each others cultures …it’s what makes us human…we don’t try to cancel them

As I said earlier we are effectively secular with ever reducing numbers of paractising Christians. This leaves Christmas as a large (and enjoyable) winter festival packed with tradition.

I think though there is a small danger of Christmas 'othering ' those that don't celebrate simply because of its scale and we should be conscious of this. The legacy of 'Christ' could be used as some as a reminder to all we are a 'Christian' country and Christian festival will always be a pronunciation of a dominant (mainly white) culture.

Picking a non Halal venue that serves alcohol at my work place is divisive and it I think it displays an element of insensitivity when the work meal is meant to celebrate everyone's efforts but the venue itself may discourage some from attending.

When you say divisive, do you mean that you have lots of muslim staff who have voiced their negative opinion on going to non halal restaurant?
Halal restaurant is also discouraging for some...

@SkylinePigeon

I can see some of your point in that we don't really gauge how many religious minorities are attending to simply not stand out or to assimilate. I think, yes, in certain companies there may be a danger of being 'othered by avoiding Christmas celebrations and maybe a lack of 'team player' spirit. Christmas is often the time for reward at work and it is tied in with a religoun based festival. If course there is limited mention of Christ at Christmas apart from the name but it can't be denied the whole celebration may be viewed by some as an assertion of one culture above others and those views should not be disdainfully dismissed.

it may be like women going to a Arab country and having to war as modest clothing. Women will do this out of respect for the culture but have an underlying unease about being forced to wear clothing they may be otherwise avoid in a more liberal country.