Christmas office parties with a diverse workforce

[mids2019]

Work forces have a diverse range of religions within the workforce. In my role I now see that there is maybe a little.questioning of how to frame the Christmas do as Christmas is a festival originated by Christians and so may feel a little exclusive given we do not have a departmental organised Eid or Divali celebration. Should the office Christmas do be reframed as the end of year party slightly divorced from Christmas as a celebratory period? (The office do also brings question of whether an alcohol fee venue may be appropriate which can get a bit contentious.)

So someone making a comment acknowledging that there is a certain type of white knight who deliberately create issues that cause division is "incredibly nasty" and "bullying" but telling someone to fuck off is an acceptable way to speak to someone on your eyes? FYI I'm not going to report you for swearing at me because I'm a grown woman, not a child in the playground.

And as an actual brown person (who doesn't feel the need to bring it up in conversation because it's actually irrelevant and doesn't make my opinion, or yours, more valid) I say it's tiresome when people get offended on my behalf and understand that it's perfectly acceptable for the people native to a country to adhere to their traditions without having to be "inclusive".
So what if people on here get annoyed at the idea that they have to seemingly downplay their beloved traditions I don't blame them for being fed up. If that annoys you then i suggest you direct that towards the aforementioned "white knights".

It's a Christmas holiday. I'm not a Christian. I love a good Christmas bash

Don't overthink it, those that want alcohol can have it those that don't won't

"Are you Jewish? Because we absolutely are forced/coerced into celebrating things we don't want to, and if you are not Jewish please stop speaking for us."

Who is forcing you? And how was I speaking for Jewish people exactly?
Assimilating to the culture of residence doesn't mean forced participation of religious events. Cultural assimilation and cultural cohesion is obviously important if you have many different communities coexisting...that's what I was getting at.

"No one is trying to stop you!! Who do you think it's trying to stop you from celebrating Christmas? This idea that evil minorities are stealing Christmas by "refusing to assimilate" is just complete race-baiting nonsense. Literally, my very first post was saying that it's stupid to live in a Christian country where Christmas is near-universally celebrated and often perceived by many as secular and object to Christmas."

No one on this thread is blaming "evil minorities" though are they. No one is saying that anyone is trying to stop them either. Quite the opposite actually, we are pointing out that there is no need for white saviours to piss people off on our behalf. That was my whole point.

Isn't it amazing how hostile the "Jews don't have any problem with Christmas and happily celebrate Christmas and anyone who says otherwise is just a virtue signalling white person who's trying to speak for Jews" brigade the second an actual Jewish person says, "Well actually I don't celebrate Christmas and have personally experienced racism as a result"?

Maybe you should ALL stop trying to speak for us? Jews aren't a hive mind.

Send to me to be more along the lines of hosting a party at a vegetarian restaurant so that vegetarian colleagues can attend - as well as Muslim and Jewish colleagues.

I'm not religious.

I am not at all offended by Christmas & I still enjoy and celebrate Christmas on a completely non-religious basis.

The DC's primary school was at least 50% Muslim. The Muslim kids & their families loved Christmas time too and the carols, tree, Santa, presents, Xmas meals & parties etc.

A Jewish Mum I knew mentioned her young son kept singing about the "baby jesus" and she was a bit miffed. I said I always sung about "baby cheeses" and she ended up teaching her son those words. We laughed 😁

I am not offended by Eid celebrations. Or Easter. Or Hanukkah. Though religion itself can often be very offensive to me.

I think you are looking for problems that aren't there.

Our Christmas do is enthusiastically organised every year by a member of staff who happens to be Sikh. It isn't a religious event in any way and our Muslim and Hindu staff are happy to attend. It's just a nice celebration at the end of the year, prior to the Christmas period in which our offices are closed and everyone has a break.

Are you just being a pill for fun?

I'm certainly not a Christian and don't drink. Haven't set foot in any church in decades. Nobody is thinking buddy Jesus is at the Christmas party waiting to smite them.

Who is forcing you?

Do you want specific examples of specific individuals and specific incidences I personally have experienced where I was pressured/coerced into celebrating Christmas, or received racist comments as a result of not doing so, or was penalised in the workplace and suffered career damage for not doing so? Because I can give you a list.

Assimilating to the culture of residence doesn't mean forced participation of religious events.

Historically a lot of Jewish assimilation absolutely did mean forced participation. And it's interesting that I used the words "pressured" and "expected" and you straight away turned that into "forced". Pressure means something very different from force. I personally do feel that I've experienced incidents in my life where I absolutely was forced to do Christian/culturally Christian things. But being pressured into something is still really damaging even if no one is outright forcing you. And pressure can take many forms. There are still a lot of people in the UK who get very very angry at someone else quietly minding their own business and quietly not celebrating Christmas.

I don't mean to be preachy, but I don't think people are really that knowledgeable about Jewish history or how that history influences things. I would love to share some personal things from my family history as I think it would be valuable to demonstrate how the past influences the present, but I don't want to be seen as lecturing or pushy. But I would like to, because I think it would be useful.

Are you directing that at me? If so please point me to my hostility?

Also please point me to where I said no Jews have an issue celebrating Christmas? In fact, I explicitly said the opposite. (Although not specifically about Jews, I have no idea why your narcissistic mind is skewing it to be all about your personal experiences).

Someone else said it's a made up "right wing" conspiracy and that literally no Jew, Muslim, Sikh or Hindu has ever had an issue with it and I pointed about that, actually that's ridiculous because those people are not a humongous lump all thinking in unison.

What I was saying is it doesn't matter if you don't want to celebrate, if you're in a country where the majority do then the people around you are going to celebrate and be excited about their celebrations.

Who is trying to speak for Jews? Why are you making this about Jewish people?

Imagine if you posted "I personally don't celebrate Eid because I'm not Muslim" and I'd replied, "It doesn't matter if ThisUsernameIsNotAvailablePlsTryAnother likes it or not, ThisUsernameIsNotAvailablePlsTryAnother has to accept that Eid is a huge cultural tradition amongst Muslims and that Muslims are free to continue to celebrate it."

No one on this thread is blaming "evil minorities" though are they.

I went out of my way in my first point to heavily emphasise that I fully acknowledge and accept that Britain is a Christian country and that Christmas is a huge part of that and that it's stupid to live in the UK if you have any issue with Christmas, and your response was still to act like I'd said something totally different to what I actually said. Why bring up "people being free to celebrate Christmas" when I'd said nothing to suggest otherwise? Why say "like it or not" when I've said nothing to imply I don't like it?

Why say "Skyline has to accept this" when I've said absolutely nothing to suggest otherwise?

And how was I speaking for Jewish people exactly?

I don't necessarily mean you personally. But I can't count how many times I've seen non-Jews posting "Jews aren't bothered by X and you're the one being racist if you object to X because you're using Jews to virtue signal and should stop speaking for them." And I've been sitting here thinking, hang on a minute, I'm a Jew and I AM bothered by X thank you very much! Lots of Jews are bothered by X! How dare you say "Jews aren't bothered by X", stop speaking for us! And what fucking gall to say "Jews aren't bothered by X" and "don't speak for Jews" in the same sentence!

(You could replace "Jew" in the above sentence with any other minority group.)

I was talking about this on a different thread this morning, non-minorities playing the "minorities aren't offended you're just using them to virtue signal" is a really well-worn tactic used that non-minorities use to play the victim and silence conversations about racism and I'm sick of it.

No. We are a Christian country, it’s our national religion, Christmas is an annual event in the calendar and parties are tradition. It does not need changing

if your office wanted to arrange a Eid or Diwali celebration, or celebration for any other religion then crack on

Historically there has been a lot of religious persecution directed at the people of this country, depending on which monarch was reigning. Oppression was a hard crushing reality for the peasant class. Historically women have been oppressed and treated as property.
Historically, a huge amount of people have faced some sort of persecution.
Presently we live in an age where we are free to observe our own cultural and religious events, without having to feel like we have to adjust to suit anyone else's sensibilities. And presently we live in a country with several different cultures trying to live in harmony so give and take is important.

My father was not born in this country, however he threw himself fully into the culture of his new home and loved taking part in British traditions. We still had our own traditions at home, but he'd never have expected anyone else to adjust their plans for some perceived notion of inclusivity on his behalf, he'd have been so upset if someone had felt the need to do that.

Why are you making this about Jewish people?

Ummmm because I AM Jewish? And because I personally have experienced unwanted pressure to celebrate Christmas, as well as racism and negative consequences because I chose as a Jew not to celebrate Christmas?

I don't know why you're accusing me of "making it about Jews" when there were plenty of posts about Jews long before I posted.

It's also pretty disingenuous to act like a thread about religious minorities not celebrating Christmas isn't heavily Jew-coded.

My father was not born in this country, however he threw himself fully into the culture of his new home and loved taking part in British traditions.

Good for your dad. My great-grandmother was gang raped at 15 (mass rape as a deliberate tactic) and saw her parents murdered, and fled in terror leaving all her possessions behind during an actual literal genocide. She didn't "love" taking part in British traditions, she hated it, but she felt absolutely terrorised into doing them because she believed she'd be risking violence, expulsion or death if she didn't.

What I was saying is it doesn't matter if you don't want to celebrate, if you're in a country where the majority do then the people around you are going to celebrate and be excited about their celebrations.

I don't understand why you keep repeating this, literally no one has said they have a problem with other people celebrating and being excited. It's like you're having a totally different argument in your head to the one that's actually written down.

It clearly DOES matter if quietly minding your own business and not celebrating makes you a target for racism and pressure to participate.

Well you wouldn't need to post that to me because I already understand that Eid is a huge cultural tradition and they are free to celebrate it. I don't personally celebrate it but who cares? It may sound harsh but when I say 'it doesn't matter whether you like it or not' I mean, it actually doesn't matter because it's happening either way.

I wasn't making any point directly at you personally. There's no "skyline" has to accept. My point is more general. We all have to accept..because we do. What other choice is there? And we do generally accept cultural differences. But it's annoying having those differences pointed out all the time when for the most part, we're all getting along anyway.

So you've had negative experiences around Christmas celebrations, how does that relate to work Christmas parties if not to imply you're uncomfortable with them?

Fucking hell, yes my dad decided to up and leave his home at the age of 14 on a whim for a jolly extended holiday and just never left 🙄.

You mean well but all the overthinking leads to posts about how you can no longer do anything or say anything without offending anyone. Posters get defensive and very Nigel Farageish!

My dh goes to his every year and his manager is great at making sure they choose a venue with either a vegetarian or fish option he can eat. He then comes home before the rest of them starting hitting bars or pubs for drinks. They also do quizzes and xmas jumper day. I've been to a few and they've been OK but I'm self employed now so opt out.

Getting drunk with your colleagues. That could possibly be inappropriate.

The issue actually isn't Christmas/Christianity. It's the tradition of office Christmas parties and the role of alcohol.

Not read the whole thread, sorry…

But, have you actually asked the non-Christians in your workplace their thoughts. That’s what I’ve done in the past and it’s not very innovative! On a team level my colleagues were happy to have a “Christmas” do, they asked that it didn’t revolve around alcohol, so that’s what we did. Then we had opportunities to share other religious and cultural festivals through the year.

The difference with Christmas in the UK is, I think, that the rhythm of workplaces changes. Kids have holidays, parents take holidays, most people get bank holidays, workloads often drop off (or increase, depending on your sector!). Whether or not you celebrate it, it’ll have an impact in a way that other dates won’t.

If I were a decision maker in a big organisation, I think I’d suggest that as an organisation we do a big celebration in the spring/summer (maybe end of tax year!), and that Christmas celebrations are at a team level.

Thing is, there's loads going on in the summer. The weather is nice, you can go out and about. Camping, holidays etc

Nothing at this time of year which is why it's nice to have all the Christmas parties and other events to get us through the gloom.

Surely you see there is a difference between a glass of wine with food and vodka luges?

"Presently we live in an age where we are free to observe our own cultural and religious events, without having to feel like we have to adjust to suit anyone else's sensibilities.*

Who is this "we" you're speaking for?

If you personally feel free to observe your cultural and religious events without feeling pressure to adjust anything, then great for you.

I'm not allowed to step foot inside my own place of worship without emailing ID and proof of background first, then going through a metal detector, into a double-door security pen.

I have felt forced to change the way I dress and the way I observe my faith to avoid abuse and violence.

Just because you feel freedom in the UK doesn't mean everyone else does.

Huh?

It is not law to drink either.

Well you wouldn't need to post that to me because I already understand that Eid is a huge cultural tradition and they are free to celebrate it.

And I made very explicitly clear that I "understand" the same about Christmas (I'm British, I'm 100% British, obviously I know that) yet you still felt you "needed" to educate me about how Brits who chose not to celebrate Christmas need to "accept that others have the freedom to celebrate Christmas whether you like it or not" which implies a whole ton of stuff that not only did I never say, I said the exact opposite.

*I wasn't making any point directly at you personally. There's no "skyline" has to accept."

You cherry picked one single sentence of mine from a much lengthier post, copy and pasted that one sentence into your reply, bolded my sentence, then wrote "Whether you like it or not you have to accept this" directly underneath. If you're not directing something at a specific poster, then don't write the word "you" directly underneath a copy paste of part of their post.

how does that relate to work Christmas parties if not to imply you're uncomfortable with them?

I'm perfectly comfortable with them existing. I'm uncomfortable being forced/pressured into attending them. I'm deeply uncomfortable being penalised or subject to racist abuse for choosing not to attend. Because those are different things.

When I said that Jewish people don't wish to celebrate Christmas, I was told by a Jewish poster
that I was mistaken, she that as a Jewish person herself, did join in, and happily. And other Jewish posters said the same.

So Jewish people in this thread are in disagreement.