Nearly in a serious car accident - hand hold please

[Usedandhurt]

Im literally shaking. Just had a driver nearly kill me and my dc on the motorway. He/she must have not checked before they pulled onto the motorway from a slip road, I literally had to slam on the breaks to avoid crashing into them and thankfully the driver behind me and the one behind them etc etc were able to stop also. My dc would have been very badly hurt - it was a huge bus and I can only imagine the driver got distracted.

Im a nervous driver at the best of times and Im literally sick with nerves.

@Persimmon23 that's why I said that horrible. It's an overreaction on OPs part (possibly, it may have been that close that even I, who clearly has no emotion, would have been left crying into a beverage) but in all likelihood it was a completely avoidable near miss if she had been proactive. Never said it wasn't the bus drivers fault.

One of my cars is small. I've been using my bigger one recently and I have always said the small one leaves me open to bullies. Sometimes they overtake on their side and don't even consider I am there because I'm so small. Mostly on roads it's wide enough for me to move over but be equally frustrated. However, I actually think people still bully in my big car, I just care less.

You're right, there are a lot of mean people on Mumsnet. I'm one of them today.

The reason why we have road rules in place is because you should not be predicting what other drivers are going to do. Yes you should take evasive action to avoid an imminent crash but you should not be taking action on the basis of what you believe another driver is about to do, that’s why we have rules which everyone is required to follow.

The op couldn’t possibly have known that the bus driver was not about to slow down and so if both of them had slowed then a crash would have been likely. That’s why the rules make clear who has priority.

If we all drive around assuming everyone else will comply with the rules, the accident rate will go up exponentially. That lorry's just started going through a red light? I'm going to assume he's about to stop because it's my right of way. Oops, he didn't. Never mind that I've just suffered life-changing injuries, I was in the right. That child is about to walk into the road, I won't slow down because she has no business being there. and it's my right of way. Shame I just knocked her over.

The op couldn’t possibly have known that the bus driver was not about to slow down and so if both of them had slowed then a crash would have been likely. That’s why the rules make clear who has priority.

So neither of them slowed and a crash was only just avoided at the last possible moment. Is that really the best outcome?

You've clearly never driven on a road. Ever. You can't go about with that attitude with as many bad drivers we have on the road.

And insurance companies don't agree. If someone comes into your land and you could have pre-empted/ avoided then it'll be 50/50 fault.

As I said, you should obviously take evasive action to avoid a crash but it is dangerous to assume you can predict what another driver is about to do. You can’t possibly know. The law won’t be on your side unless you were following the Highway Code in your actions.

Insurance companies potentially won’t pay out if you leave your house unlocked but that will be clearly set out in the agreement you signed. Not analogous to not following the Highway Code.

@Xol the good driver slowed and took evasive action to correct a mistake which the bad driver made and was likely to lead to an awful outcome. I think the confusion is arising with the posters who are basically expecting the OP to have read the bus drivers mind and act accordingly. She was clearly of sufficient skills and speed to stop an accident from occurring, even though she was doing as she was supposed to do which was drive safely and expect others to do the same.

Who is to say the OP didnt think, ok, there is a bus coming at speed at short notice surely he will slot in behind me or wherever is safe as I'm in this lane and there is no room for him and he, as a professional driver, will know that he cannot do what he is doing without risking serious injury.

Your analogy regarding a child/lorry is not representative of the scenario in which the OP found herself. Roads with traffic lights and pedestrians have a different set of driving hazards. Of course other drivers will jump the lights, children dart out in front of cars etc however on the motorway drivers expect that other drivers are aware of speeds/how to navigate lanes correctly as there are no traffic lights/pedestrian crossings/cars parked illegally etc to consider. Simply you are travelling at speed, you need to ensure you leave adequate distance and time (which the OP and the good drivers behind her clearly did) and only join or move lanes when its safe to do so.

Here lies the body
Of William Jay,
Who died maintaining
His right of way.
He was in the right
As he sped along,
But he’s just as dead
As if he’d been wrong.

This is complete nonsense. Of course we should be aware of what other people might do and what potential hazards exist around us. Taking evasive action only when a crash is imminent basically means either swerving or slamming the brakes on, both of which are far more dangerous manoeuvres than simply slowing down a little and being observant and ready to act.

@ReturnOfTheRainMac everyone's stress level and perception is different to stressful scenarios, who is to say that you wouldnt have cried or raged or whatever, who is to say that the OP wasnt over reacting or was under reacting. We cant know as we weren't there. What we have is the OP, a member of this forum, who came on hoping for some compassion. instead she has been bullied, ridiculed for feeling upset, called a liar, told she was wasting police time, was a dangerous driver, that what happened either totally or partially her fault and used as a battering ram by some posters to dig at another poster. All this when she did exactly as she had been taught to do and still managed to avoid an accident and negate another drivers incompetence. Its shameful tbh.

You say that you are one of the mean people on mumsnet today, can I ask why?

I too have access to more than one car, I prefer my smaller as its easier to park etc, I definitely notice the difference between using a bigger and smaller car whilst driving. Other drivers dont tend to pay much mind to me in my smaller car, and I have been subjected to far more incidents of aggression from bigger cars in my little run around that I ever had in a more substantial vehicle.

@Persimmon23

You say that you are one of the mean people on mumsnet today, can I ask why?
This bloody thread 😂😂😂

I too have access to more than one car, I prefer my smaller as its easier to park etc, I definitely notice the difference between using a bigger and smaller car whilst driving. Other drivers dont tend to pay much mind to me in my smaller car, and I have been subjected to far more incidents of aggression from bigger cars in my little run around that I ever had in a more substantial vehicle.
Id have completely agreed with you until this last week and my big car has left me as "bullied" as my small car and now i don't know where I stand. I haven't used my big car for weeks and I literally got in it thinking, I won't be so bullied now. Jokes on me.

The posters saying that the OP should have moved are correct. Driving isn't about feeding the steering wheel through, it's about looking ahead and anticipating. A motorway driver knows where there is a junction as they see it, and should anticipate,in good time, that there may well be joining traffic. They should safely move over, or slow down, to allow that joining traffic to join.
I drive about 30,000 miles a year. I have incidents with bad drivers almost daily.
Not sure you should be driving at all OP, as your understanding of responsibility and nerves don't really seem to be up to it?

Just read this, proving my point that you are not safe to drive-

please read the full thread. The bus came onto the motorway from the slip road, at speed, no pausing. There was no possible way for me to move lanes as 1. I didnt have time and 2. there was traffic in my right lane. ITs a car I drive, not a magic carpet.

THE BUS SHOULD NOT PAUSE!! Do you pause on a slip road?!

The rule of joining a motorway is you match the speed of that motorway and join in the space freed up by the existing traffic.

Oh my goodness, OP. Either stop driving or go and get some motorway lessons. Please.

@TheCompactPussycat yep - the OP was aware, she took measures to avoid (thank goodness as the bus driver clearly couldn't give a toss) when she shouldn't have had to. Tell me, if you were travelling in the outside lane and a middle lane car decided it would like to go ahead of you and barged in, caused you to take evasive action or worse still crashed into you. Caused you and your car damage, would you go to the police, go through their/your insurance or would you think, silly me, I should have expected that a car/big vehicle in another lane would want into my lane as its rush hour. I shouldn't be upset or anxious, I should have thought of my role in this event, why didn't I realise that even if there wasn't room, Big Vehicle wanted in and that should be enough. At least 50% my fault so I should just suck it up. No tears, just big girls pants.

Come on! that just bollocks. Most drivers would be the first to quote HC/ their innocence etc. Most people would get upset if they were travelling safely and legally and someone did something to make that situation change. Most people expect that other drivers dont behave like lunatics let out for the day behind the wheel. Yes, by all means drive defensively, the OP clearly did as she was able to react so quickly but put the blame squarely where it lies!

@baileybrosbuildingandloan Are you seriously on a forum telling me that you fly straight onto a motorway, without checking if there is sufficient space and expect everyone to get out of your way? FYI I pause when I have to before joining traffic if there is no safe way to join.

Fk me either you live and drive on a planet of your own, have sold your soul for eternal life or can afford astronomical insurances fees. Tell me, do you drive your car like you stole it? 😂

This OP will not listen.
She said the bus joined "with no notice"!
So an upcoming junction is not notice?
This OP believes she's the best driver and a complete victim.

I think I'll rephrase this whole thread.

"I drive a bus for a living. A bloody great big bus that is easily visible. I was coming down a slip road today, matching the motorway speed as you should, when I realised that the car on the inside lane was not giving room for me to join. She didn't move to the next lane, or slow a little to allow me room to join! Then she suddenly slammed on the brakes, and I could see that she nearly caused a pile up! If people aren't capable of motorway driving, then they shouldn't use them. Thank goodness my driver training means I held my nerve, coped with her awful driving, and all my passengers were safe!"

@TheCompactPussycat i didn’t say you shouldn’t be aware of potential hazards or aware of what others might do. What I did say is that you should follow the rules of the Highway Code and not take ACTION that is based on a prediction of what you think a driver is going to do next. An example is that you should not even assume someone indicating is actually going to turn, as per the Highway Code.

@baileybrosbuildingandloan - yep, she looked ahead, no bus, then all of sudden there was, coming into her lane, at speed, no where to go as there was traffic to the right. the OPs driving record of 20 years would seem to suggest that her skills, responsibility and awareness are on par with what good driving is about.

Im amazed that you drive they way you do for 30k a year and are alive quite frankly.

@baileybrosbuildingandloan not every slip road will have a car/bus coming off it at each second. Tell me what would happen if there was an accident ahead of the OP, cars behind, cars to the right, the bus is speeding down the slipway no where to go. do you advocate for the bus plowing straight into traffic? Plus, as some posters have conveniently forgotten, she reported this to the police, who appear to be of the view that she isnt at fault. and before we get a chorus of "police arent interested in this sort of thing",

That's bollocks also because the police where I live are very interested in road offences hence why we have a relatively small number of fatalities compared with other cities.

The average coach in UK (the most likely 'bus' to be on motorway) is 12m long. Most motorway sliproads are required to be at least 200m long.

The bus must have been going quite a bit slower than OP at the time it pulled out for OP to have needed to brake to a standstill to make space for it to pull across. Which suggests that OP was effectively overtaking the bus as it moved down the sliproad.

If bus has speed limiter of 60mph (likely), this matches the OPs comment the bus was going 'at speed'.

But if the bus can only reach 60mph, and is trying to match its speed to the inside lane speed, what is it to do if a car at 70 starts closing the gap it has spent the last 150m lining itself up for?

Assuming OP was doing 70mph and was level with back of bus with 50m of sliproad left. That leaves:

1. 4 bus lengths of sliproad left for the merge.
2. At 60mph, this would be 2 seconds remaining on the sliproad for the bus.
3. At 70mph, this would be 1.7 seconds for OP to clear the end of the sliproad.
4. At 10mph faster than the bus, OP would be going 4 metres per second faster than the bus. So it would take her 3 seconds to get in front of bus, if she was level with back of it with 50m of sliproad to go.
5. But bus runs out of sliproad in 2 seconds time, not 3 seconds.
6. So what is bus to do? Well, obviously they have reached their maximum legal travelling speed in the 150m of sliproad so far, so should be able to enter a safe gap at matched traffic speed.
7. If the inside lane was other HGVs with a legal maximum speed of 60mph, all would be well.
8. But OP has rocked up, doing (presumably) 70, and not backing off because she has 'right of way' over traffic joining from the slip lane, which has a give way marking at the end of it.
9. But if OP was doing 70 and bus was accelerating from 45 to 60 as it travelled down the sliproad, it would have been at least 2 bus lengths clear ahead of OP at the start of the sliproad, with a clear space beside it to merge into.
10. If bus is already travelling at its maximum legal speed, with a merge gap beside it, highway code or not, it's got to be pretty life-threatening for OP to go into that merge gap at 70mph when bus isn't legally allowed to go any faster, if OP isn't prepared to move into an overtaking lane to overtake at that point.

If that's what happened OP, or any approximation of it, I'm afraid you're bonkers for soaking up all of the safe pulling out space the bus should have had in front of you at 60mph.

If you can't notice a bus moving down the slipway ahead of you & accelerating to 60mph, and that you are only just going faster than it - and your choice is to carry on and assume IT will stop rather than easing off the accelerator to slow to the maximum legal speed of an HGV joining the inside lane so you are safely behind it - then good luck for next time as well.

If you want to be able to proceed at 70mph no matter what, and not accommodate slipway traffic at their legal maximum, then you CERTAINLY need to be moving to the second lane ahead of the junction merge. You can't just assume slipway traffic will stop for you if they can't ever actually match your lane speed, no matter what the highway code says!

An opportunity for this to become a diagram thread...?

You are still missing the point. People aren't saying the bus was right and the OP was wrong. People are saying that they and many (most?) other drivers would have altered their driving before they reached the slip road because they know there will likely be vehicles trying to get onto the motorway. It's what many (most?) of us do so we don't have to react when we get to the slip road.

What on earth are you on about?

Of course it would be a police matter if another car crashed into mine on the motorway, and the OP was quite within her rights to contact the police about her incident. Please explain what makes you think I feel otherwise.

@ReturnOfTheRainMac its awful isnt it when you have some really aggressive people on the road who just behave like they own it. I feel most sorry for older people. My neighbour, a lovely elderly gentleman still uses his car. Ive witnessed blasting of horns, people shouting out of their cars at him etc and that is just in the small place that we live in. Mostly because he wants to drive at the speed limit and take his time coming up to junctions.

I used to think it was just men who behaved this way but we have a few female drivers around here (and from the sounds of some of the responses could well be members of mumsnet) who drive like they are the only ones with rights on the roads and fk everyone else. Saw one lady approach another in a car park of our local supermarket last year at Christmas to say that she had reported her to the police for dangerous driving as she had left the scene of an accident (apparently lunatic lady driver had taken off lovely lady drivers wing mirror and drove on - this was captured on camera). Lunatic driver was sputtering about how it was all nonsense whilst lovely lady driver shrugged and said "we will see" last I heard lunatic driver had paid for lovely lady drivers repairs. Sometimes life just works out 😂

@baileybrosbuildingandloan you do realise that the OP has not responded from the initial day she posted, How is that making her "still not listen". We are all arguing a point which the OP is unlikely to see as, because of the treatment she received at her initial request for help, she dropped out of the conversation. As will I at this point tbh as its becoming tiring trying to constantly defend someone who hasnt done anything wrong.

I'm not sure you've understood what I and others mean by taking action. When we say anticipate, we don't mean predict. We are not predicting a single particular course of action that the other driver will take. We are anticipating all the courses of action the other driver might take and putting ourselves in a position where we can react to whichever one of them occurs.

For example, (and for the sake of argumentative posters, I am not talking about the OP's specific situation here) you are approaching a junction on a motorway and in half a mile or so there will be a slip road for vehicles joining the motorway. I would, at that point, try to move into the middle lane when it was safe to do so. I don't need to wait to see whether there is anything on the slip road before taking that action. It is a perfectly safe and reasonable action in itself. If it turns out there was nothing on the slip road then no-one has lost anything by my action of moving to the middle lane.

I don't think your example works well. Those of us who are saying you need to anticipate other driver's actions and act accordingly would absolutely not assume the driver was going to turn and would therefore wait until they were sure one way or the other.