Labour want teachers to supervise kids brushing their teeth ARGH.

[noblegiraffe]

People can't get dentists for their children.

Children's teeth are one of the top reasons for child hospital admission, with 9 out of 10 extractions in 0-5 year olds being due to preventable decay.

This is clearly an area that needs addressing urgently.

BUT schools are in crisis, if they're not literally falling apart they are running out of teachers or unable to hire teaching assistants. Primary schools are increasingly unable to meet the needs of children with SEN and disabilities, where numbers are going through the roof. Where is the time to supervise teeth-brushing going to come from? Who has the capacity to implement this? It seems that Labour are willing to accept that there is a crisis in dentistry, but pushing extra workload onto schools to solve it is just failing to recognise the crisis in schools in terms of ability to take on extra responsibilities.

There is an increasing trend to see a problem in society and expect schools to do something about it. There's also an increasing trend whereby underfunded support services for children reduce the offer of those services, and schools are just expected to pick up the slack. An example would be NHS Southwest deciding to stop accepting referrals for autism diagnosis except in cases of extreme need, saying that schools could just deal with these children not having a diagnosis. CAMHS collapsing under the weight of mental health issues in children was met with the policy that schools should have a member of staff given a bit of training to try to replace expert services. Special schools are saying that some children are too needy for their specialist setting, so those children with extreme needs are left in mainstream schools who are just expected to get on with it.

Why is Labour's go-to that teachers should supervise teeth brushing and not that parents should supervise teeth brushing and be supported in this?

What do people want the purpose of schools to be? If it is to educate children, then the rest of this stuff needs to be farmed elsewhere.

If it is to be that schools should be a one-stop-shop for all issues relating to children, then we need funding, staffing and infrastructure that acknowledges this new role.

It happens in some nursery and reception classes.

Poor dental hygiene is a form of neglect and poor parenting, not alone a sign of anything untoward but as part of a bigger picture.

I led a school where many children had had to have all of their baby teeth removed under anaesthetic- horrific. Parents response - ‘they won’t brush their teeth for me’.

Come on!
Be the grown up, boundaries, rules, expectation of routine, time, effort, consistency.

That is why it flags as one of a range of signs of ineffective parenting.

It is your job to brush your toddler's teeth, whether he wants you to or not. Do you honestly think it will be easier for one teacher to get 30 children to reliably brush their teeth with good technique than for you to get one child to? Trust me - nothing is easier with a 1 adult to 30 children ratio than with a 1 adult to 1 child ratio. Teachers aren't magic.

Completely agree.

If we’re not careful, we’ll end up with children with bad teeth in 15 years time and parents making claims against the teachers because they didn’t supervise carefully enough!

This is hugely different to a PHSE lesson in how to clean your teeth or a visit from a dentist. This is the job of a parent. If they aren’t doing it properly, then that’s what needs to be looked at-campaigans to support parents with basic parenting.

We had these.
They were a pain to clean the toothpaste gunk out of.
Teachers were expected to write each child's name on the brush and in the bus. Then both had to be covered with sellotape to stop the name rubbing off.
They still had to be rewritten weekly after the equipment had been soaked in Milton.

It was a huge waste of teaching and learning time as well as a pain in the arse in my own time when I already had an endless list of jobs to do.

My toddler hates having his teeth brushed. Sometimes I have to pin him down to do it while he screams.
That doesn't mean that I can decide that I am not bothering and make it someone else's responsibility.

Schools are expected to do so much mopping up for poor parenting, especially in areas of high deprivation. Then we are asked why our results are not the same as the leafy lane school in the next town.

Imagine: going outside to bring in your class of (often more that 30) 6 year olds. At least 1 is refusing to come in, at least 1 is dysregulated because they don't manage non structured times well, at least 2 have had a falling out and won't let it go, at least 1 has lost something at least 1 needs a wee or a drink.

You are the only adult in the room because budgets are so tight that TAs are now a thing if the past.
You need to get them all into the classroom, register them, brush their teeth (using the equipment that you cut your own lunch short to set up- a paper towel and blob if toothpaste per child), put things away, clean the tables and then rangle the class onto the carpet to start your actual job- teaching them.

It's just madness

You need to wrap your toddler in a big towel after their bath and sit them on your lap and clean their teeth. Absolutely no negotiation.

Sorry. That was long and ranty.

But the 'teachers could just...' brigade have absolutely no idea.

Trust me - nothing is easier with a 1 adult to 30 children ratio than with a 1 adult to 1 child ratio. Teachers aren't magic.

Reminds me in lockdown of parents complaining that they couldn't get their kid to do the work, and yet teachers could. I don't think they appreciate how much blood sweat and tears are expended in schools based purely around getting the kids to do the work. All those routines and expectations and rules and so on....and then you get some parent going 'I don't understand why teachers don't just let kids go to the toilet when they want to'. It's because kids don't want to do the work!

The same parents probably complain if a teacher raises their voice, uses a reward system or rings the parent at home!

I hated those tablets. Some teachers said they were smarties so the kids took them

Crikey this thread has been eye opening; I didn’t realise there was such a Cold War between parents and teachers. My kid has just started in reception and the minimal interaction I’ve had with his teacher left me with the impression she thinks I’m a total nuisance, I thought I was being paranoid, but I see the context now.

There's a thread running at the moment where parents are saying that moving a child away from others to sit on the carpet because they are talking and won't stop is abuse 🤷🏻‍♀️ what hope do we have?!

It is your job to brush your toddler's teeth, whether he wants you to or not. Do you honestly think it will be easier for one teacher to get 30 children to reliably brush their teeth with good technique than for you to get one child to? Trust me - nothing is easier with a 1 adult to 30 children ratio than with a 1 adult to 1 child ratio. Teachers aren't magic.

Totally agree.

Not only that but 30 children brushing their teeth for 2 minutes is an hour. Not including the time taken to make sure everyone has their brush and get the toothpaste on and show them how to do it

So around an hour and a half a day? Which lessons are they expecting us to drop to do this? Or can we magically produce extra time too?

Tbh, I've had enough.

The comments are surely directed at the significant minority of parents who fail to parent. If you're not in a job which puts you in contact with these people, you're probably not aware of them. It is truly shocking - no child in Reception should have had a significant number of teeth removed because their parent feeds them rubbish and doesn't brush their teeth. Many (most?) teachers are parents too. Speaking to parents is one of the nicest parts of my job. But I feel incredibly sad for children with parents who neglect them.

Not only that but 30 children brushing their teeth for 2 minutes is an hour. Not including the time taken to make sure everyone has their brush and get the toothpaste on and show them how to do it

Oh, I would imagine you’ll be expected to have it done in just the two minutes, because if you haven’t got them all ready and poised with their toothpaste sitting ready on their toothbrush to start when the two minute timer goes, then you’ll be accused of poor time management.

There’s a probably a support plan target for that!

Especially if you happen to be UPS

I am an oral health educator and I go into pre-school and primary schools to discuss brushing /diet.

95% of dentistry is done at home.

Parents should be held accountable
For their children's oral health the same as they would with their general heath.

Decayed teeth in children is completely preventable.

It's neglect.

"Teachers can just slot it into their routine' is so, so utterly naive.

You just know it would involve massive work on the part of the teacher to create a routine around teeth brushing, implement a routine and then enforce a routine. And clean-up after the routine.

There's not a Cold War between parents and teachers. There's a definite war on between teachers and ridiculously unrealistic job expectations. Sometimes parents contribute to that.

If teachers were content with their lot, there wouldn't have been national strikes (which may yet be re-opened now that the govt have cut school funding again in an announcement made at 5:30pm this Friday evening - see the sort of thing we're having to deal with?)

@ConnieTucker our local centre started limiting certain sessions to families from specific postcodes for the reasons you describe. The "posh" people stopped coming and numbers fell to the extent that the sessions were then considered unviable.

@DrCoconut the one i went to most, as it had the most on including breastfeeding support from specialist trained hws - not even sure theres any of them left anymore, was once filmed for the local news as it was in one of the most deprived areas in the county at that time. And what a great resource for those people in that area went the report… At the end of it the camera man spanned the carpark, showing the bmws, range rovers, mercs etc.

The local families it was aimed at were still in pjs at that time. or rarely left their homes.

But that's not what you said.

You said:

Here’s a hint: it’s all family related.

It's not.

I used to do this in Nursery classes at school in the 80s. The children were full time and brushed their teeth after lunch. I always taught children in Reception how to wash their hands properly as well.

I don't imagine anyone expects teachers in Secondary to do it.

I've done supervised brushing of teeth and the use of disclosing tablets once as part of an annual science unit of work on teeth and dental heath. Is that the kind of thing that people who claim to recall teachers supervising teeth brushing are remembering?

If it really used to be 'a thing', I'm almost certain it was before the current tragedy that education in primary schools today. There is no way that teachers have time to do this on a daily basis. Absolutely not happening.

It was more the tone, than the topic. The tone in which parents have been talked about.

Many (most?) teachers are parents too.

And maybe this makes it worse, because some parents are horribly judgemental and critical of other parents. Usually when they’ve had different experiences. Parents who’ve never had a child refuse to clean their teeth are the same parents who say things like “just sit them down and make them”. As if it’s magically that easy. Luckily my three all love cleaning their teeth, but they’ve had the odd day where they’re not interested and clamp their mouths shut and I can’t imagine having that battle every day.

The vibe I’ve got from my sons teacher isn’t one of “we’re all in this together” but rather “when you hand him over at the school gate, we know best, you know nothing, buzz off and stop asking questions”. All I’m saying is, I’m starting to see some of the background for why the teacher may feel like this.

There aren’t enough dentists- when we needed a new dentist for my son I called every dentist for miles around starting with the closest and I ended up having to register him with a purely private dental surgery 45 minutes up the motorway. Every other closer one was full for both nhs and private patients.

I live in a very deprived area, a lot of people just don’t have the option to pay and travel so the kids don’t have dentists.

No way

https://www.childsmile.nhs.scot/professionals/childsmile-toothbrushing/^^

Scottish schools aren't English schools.