What constitutes under class?

[Invalidusername88]

Just reading about working class on another thread. It got me thinking about the term under class? What does this mean?

Also what class would you identify yourself as if you had to?

Well, if you come from a Scandinavian country, then I agree that it is less important to label severely underprivileged people, because there isn't the kind of poverty that there is here.

It is a reality that there is serious poverty in the UK and most who are dealing with it have no hope of ever escaping it. What you're doing is well-intentioned, but you are talking about erasing people who are suffering.

We need words to describe things. That's where the old conundrum about whether a tree that falls when there's no one to hear it actually makes a sound. The poverty and snobbery in the UK is so extreme that we need a word to describe the least-advantaged people. This is not about worth. YOU are making it about worth. This is about describing what people are dealing with.

@AnotherTeaPlease no phrase. I don't feel broad labels are useful contributors to society, particularly labels with negative connotations (under). Given a negative label people tend to behave in a way that reinforces that label this you have an 'under class' living up to their reputation.

@Antst I come from a country with no society labels and yes we do have poverty. No labels doesn't make the problem go away but at least those children can grow up minus the label.

That is not a good thing. Refusing to acknowledge what they're experiencing makes it disappear for everyone else, as I already said. Either extreme poverty/inequality is not as widespread in your country as it is in the UK or people in your country are ignoring it.

Defining poverty doesn't mean people walk around with labels on them. It means that we know where the problem is and have a hope of addressing it.

@Antst it is 100% not being ignored. You don't like to listen do you. You're just spouting out objections to what I am saying. I will say it again. I come from a country that has poverty but no labels. The poverty is recognised/acknowledged by the government very publicly BUT we spare these people the label. It's not hard to understand. I don't like labels. That's my opinion. The end.

Language exists to describe things. Without words, we can't acknowledge reality. We need words to describe the reality of what people are dealing with.

You're refusing to say what country you're talking about but it doesn't matter. If there's no language for describing the problem, then it is not being dealt with.

In fact, in the UK, a situation was revealed a few months ago where greedy Tory MPs refused to use labels and MPs from wealthy southern areas ended up getting levelling-up money intended for poor areas.

This nails it.

It is NOT people who are disabled or on benefits per se. It’s the criminality and anti-social behaviour that defines it.

Jeez, the guilt-ridden handwringing amongst the privileged classes on this thread about the use of term 🙄 Ffs you can tell who live in the nice leafy middle class enclaves who don’t have to rub up against the ‘underclass’ and deal with their shit or work in the agencies that have to mop up the damage to the children…

Most benefits class people are very traumatised individuals surviving miserably any way they can, passing that trauma down to their children because they don't know any better.

This is the underlying truth, @changenam. Congratulations on getting yourself to a safer situation but, as you say, the cost of doing so is immensely high - even to those with some idea of how to do it. Most don't even know.

@TrailingLoellia, it barely matter what we call these classes. They exist. I wonder if the general reluctance to assign labels is a symptom of refusal to face the facts? It's easy to not think about what you can't name. There's a strong feeling of undeserving poor in this thread - that glorious Victorian excuse for throwing the most in need to the gutter.

In my opinion, no one chooses to never work except those of the upper class who have no need to work.

Mine, too. Some work is paid at standard rates by clients or employers. Some is unpaid - SAHMs, volunteers, informal carers. Some work is exploitation - prostitution, slavery, unpaid internships, modern apprenticeships, drug running. Some is bureaucratic imposition - claiming benefits. Crime is work. Getting an education is work. Hobbies are work. Even the filthy rich work - at their investments, their reputations and networks, charities.

While trying not to climb on one of my soap-boxes, our outdated attachment to a narrow definition of 'work' is behind a systematic failure to channel people's need to work for the wider social & economic good. This is coming back to bite us now we're out of the Industrial age, and it will get worse.

@GarlicGrace
Yes, I agree it is very easy to avoid thinking about classes, especially those who are worse off than working class. I also wonder if the urge to disavow the existence of millions stuck in poverty is to avoid admitting that meritocracy is a myth, that social mobility is downwards a thousand times more often than upwards.

Most of the wealthy like to pretend they have “working class” roots and it is usually an untruthful claim to one make us believe in the meritocracy myth and to dispel some of the rage over the chronic and widening inequality in the U.K.

It’s the original definition of underclass! The whole concept of a underclass is nasty and bigoted. That is why it hasn’t been (seriously) used in decades.

It's a horrible term, but it's just labelling people who don't contribute to society by choice. It's used, predominantly by snobby people, to umbrella everyone on benefits.

Jason from Top Boy (seasons 2 & 3) would be underclass.
Brought up by addicts and abused as a child. Later uses heroin himself and works as a drug dealer.
There's a very touching scene which demonstrates the difference between the working class and the underclass.
Jason and his workmate/mentor Sully are at the beach in a run down seaside town.
The setting reminds Sully of childhood holidays and he reminisces about his family, happy times spent together and the sacrifices his mother made to give him nice experiences.
Jason confides that he has never been to a beach before or even outside of London.
Sully is working class and has chosen to become a drug dealer.
Jason is underclass and lacks other options.

Carers get £75 a week and could never afford such a deposit

I'm disabled and unemployed so looks like I'm one of the underclass. 😟

Addiction is not entirely class based. The only difference is which drugs you can afford to buy