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*Spoilers spoilers spoilers* the running grave spoilers thread.. (Content warning - mentions suicide)

717 replies

EggTheParrot · 27/09/2023 12:42

Just as the title says really.. spoilers ok in this thread. Let's keep the other one spoiler free??

Oh my god why is Robyn going undercover!

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TheMadGardener · 08/10/2023 18:12

MargotBamborough · 08/10/2023 15:30

Is Zowie pronounced like Zoe or Zah-wee?

Like Zoe I think.
Apparently he was known as Zowie until age 12 when he decided to be known as Joey or Joe instead. Then at 18 he started using Duncan which was his other given name along with Zowie.
Probably not the only celebrity child to choose a less alternative name.

Maybe when Strike catches up with Switch Whitaker he'll find he now goes by the name of Dan or Matt!

StartupRepair · 08/10/2023 21:06

Absolutely agree about the online footprint. I was half expecting a line saying that the office had developed a few undercover profiles for their use. Of course the cult would google anyone coming in.

LongLizStridesAgain · 09/10/2023 07:47

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fruitstick · 09/10/2023 07:55

I don't think Murphy is Matthew 2 either.

I also don't think it's fair if Strike and Robin are allowed character growth but Murphy is a wrongun because he was once a alcoholic.

Robin needs to take responsibility for the fact that she doesn't love him (as much as she loves Strike) and is not being fair. Rather than Strike having to 'rescue' her from another wrong choice.

MumStafford · 09/10/2023 07:57

Yes! I too believe that Strike is the father of Bijou’s baby and that she’s just saying it belongs to the QC as he’s the one she wants to be with.
Bet that will put a spanner in the works for Robin/Strike 😓

LongLizStridesAgain · 09/10/2023 08:53

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tribpot · 09/10/2023 08:56

maybe they'd have been better off leaving clumps of boiled wholemeal pasta

😂Can you imagine Robin's state of mind if that's what she'd found in the rock?! I think you're right @LongLizStridesAgain she needed the morale boost of some chocolate more.

I don't think Murphy is a wrong 'un (whilst sober at least). He can tell that Robin is in love with Strike - that does put a bit of a spanner in the works for him. However, I am worried about where his back story is taking both him and Robin.

LargeSquareRock · 09/10/2023 09:08

She could have been left both pasta and chocolate!

LongLizStridesAgain · 09/10/2023 09:10

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BertieBotts · 09/10/2023 09:13

I agree, I think Ryan Murphy is a good man and would be a nice partner for someone. If Strike wasn't around, or completely unavailable/uninterested, I think Robin would probably be quite happy with Ryan - the main reason that they aren't working out is because her heart isn't in it.

If you look at the trajectory of their relationship throughout all the books, they meet each other, they are surprised by each other (Strike thinks Robin is just a temp and then is thrown off when she's actually useful, Robin thinks Strike is a grumpy/rude bastard but she is intrigued by the case and can't help herself getting caught up in it, and through this she comes to appreciate his skill and insight, and then grows fond of him as a person).

I honestly think that Robin is mostly excited by the detective work and process and the success of the agency, shared progression towards a shared goal - she does have feelings for Strike, but it's all caught up in their partnership in this specific work, and the fact that they make a good team. I think if she'd met him in any other context, if they didn't work together, she wouldn't be attracted to him. She's attracted to their partnership rather than being attracted to him as a person, although she is fond of/attached to him as a person now. Whereas Strike immediately noted that Robin was hot (and then tried not to because he was being respectful of her boundaries, which I like) and then he also noticed all the various things that make her competent which makes him like her even more. But I think he'd appreciate these things about her even if he knew her in a totally different context, and for him getting to work with her is a glorious asset (but anyone competent could fill that space and he would still, separately, be attracted to Robin) whereas Robin is attracted to their partnership. Which, honestly, I think isn't a bad basis for a relationship at all - I can recognise it in my own relationship, and I think it's a really good basis for marriage, because rather than seeing "Me, my life" and then that joining on to someone who has their own life which is linked with yours, you see it more as "Us, our life, our goals" - I think that's a far more fulfilling relationship for Robin. And while Ryan ticks a lot of the boxes - detective, handsome, good in bed, good listener, respectful - he lacks that one crucial part. I think if Robin did leave the agency and join the police instead, she could well get together with a co-worker there and have the same kind of fulfilling partnership relationship.

And they both had obstacles which had to leave before they could really look at each other otherwise it wouldn't work - Strike needed that final, permanent cut off from Charlotte, painful as it was, and Robin needed to have some other relationship experience other than Matthew. So it makes sense that both of these things had to happen first, and this was a clear setting up in this book so that they both have a totally clear slate - of course Robin still needs to actually end the relationship, but I think Strike is right and it won't be long until she does. That relationship was never meant to be permanent, it was meant to be a palate cleanser after Matthew. After you've been in an unhealthy relationship, especially one that started very young, it's really really useful to have experience of something healthy where boundaries are respected and you can be yourself, even if it's not quite right for you. She needed to do that with someone that isn't Strike before she could go into a relationship with Strike, otherwise she would still have had baggage which would have got in the way I think. I hope they do break up amicably and there is a happy ever after result for Ryan, because he does seem nice and genuine.

Good point about changing Switch's name - that would make sense, it's a terrible name XD especially with the Nintendo Switch console out - imagine being called "Playstation"!

I really really didn't want Bijou to be having Strike's baby but now I don't know! I'm sure that's just a teaser for us all to ponder about and I really can't tell if it's a total red herring or whether it's going to be a theme of the next book.

BertieBotts · 09/10/2023 09:32

I think Rowling gets criticised a lot for "implicit narrator bias" but I think she is actually just writing this into the character - Robin obviously doesn't feel it is a problem.

Strike has selfish reasons for hoping that Ryan secretly has a bad side, and he doesn't feel particularly empathetic towards those with addiction problems, especially alcohol, because of his upbringing and Whittaker, and Charlotte as well perhaps. He's also quite judgemental in general towards people who don't cope with life, as his way of coping is just to be stoic and get on with things, and he seems quite irritated by anyone who doesn't do that like he does, or as he sees it "wallows in self pity" - he has displayed thoughts like that in quite a few of the books. Towards those "trans-abled" characters that he met in Career of Evil, towards the girl online with the blog and the parrots (I forget her name now) in IBH, and in this book with the "She just sits around drawing pictures!" He's surprised that Lucy goes to therapy, probably because he sees her as coping and happy in general, while she is surprised that he doesn't. He's confused by Whittaker's girlfriend and why she won't be saved by him when Whittaker hits her in public.

I think Strike is probably a person who draws a line between people who get on with things and have what he considers "decent" goals, work ethic etc vs people who he sees as scroungers and lazy, like Whittaker, and he can't quite reconcile the idea of having therapy, accepting a "label" of disabled/mentally ill etc with that life - he thinks the only way through is to brute force it and to aquiesce to a label would be admitting defeat. He never ever refers to himself as disabled, despite the false leg. He only went to a doctor for his stump right when he absolutely couldn't ignore it any more, and since then it's not like he's cut back on work or been resting, taking painkillers or going for physiotherapy etc, in fact he's so determined to avoid all that he is doing all the weight loss, cutting down on smoking and drinking etc, specifically because his greatest fear is turning into a helpless invalid. IIRC he actually went against medical advice because they wanted him to rest and he thought that's not possible.

Although, he did encourage Robin to pursue therapy in Lethal White. So he obviously doesn't completely see it as giving up. But Robin is always quite conscious of this in Strike, and both in that book and several times in this book, she hides what she's actually feeling because she doesn't want him to think she's "cracking up" or unable to handle some kind of strain. There is this constant back and forth as well where he wants to protect her and she is indignant and wants to prove that she doesn't need protection (and then inevitably does!)

fruitstick · 09/10/2023 10:06

Strike does see a value in therapy etc, just not for him because he doesn't need it. Even so he has a history of self-neglect, bingeing etc which I think is very common. People who pride themselves on not being an alcoholic or drug addict but harm themselves in different ways.

I'm listening to Cuckoo Calling again, and their character development has been a long process. I think Strike wanting Ryan to fall off the wagon is part of Strike not taking responsibility and just hoping that Ryan will fuck it up. The definite shift at the end was the realisation that that's unlikely to happen and he has to make an effort himself.

Lancelottie · 09/10/2023 14:19

I really really didn't want Bijou to be having Strike's baby but now I don't know! I'm sure that's just a teaser for us all to ponder about and I really can't tell if it's a total red herring or whether it's going to be a theme of the next book.

Hmm, I'm gloomily inclined to think that Robin will find she's pregnant with Ryan's much wanted baby, will consider or opt for an abortion because of the effect on the agency, and an appalled Ryan will break up with her/fall off the wagon/ come to fisticuffs with Strike about it/all of the above.

User478 · 09/10/2023 14:24

I'm just re-listening a bit slower.

I think Mazu has the potential to be very dangerous in prison. I hope there are lots of world wise inmates to knock her down a few pegs to stop her gathering a band of disciplines in prison.

Novemberish · 09/10/2023 16:11

Happy to find this spoilery thread. I need to talk 😂

It might because I stayed up past 1am to finish the book and maybe I was too tired to take in all details but I'm confused about Becca and Daiyu and would be grateful if someone could explain what happened. I've tried to re-read the ending again this morning and still don't get it.

I had deduced - and was very proud of myself - quite early on that Daiyu was swapped with Becca; the timings, the fact that Becca was taken away and returned three year later but seemed different to her family; her status as virgin spirit wife and relationship with Mazu; the numerous references to Daiyu still being alive... I was really pleased when Strike and Robin came to the same conclusion and Robin confronted the Waces - but then, we moved to the back story with Abigail and found out the chilling story about Daiyu's actual death.

So that obviously means Becca isn't Daiyu. In that case, what is the deal with her? Why did Wace protect her virginity?

Also, did Wace and Mazu know what really happened to Daiyu? Did they believe she had drowned? What was the relevant of Wace being, or not being, at the farm that morning?

AppropriateAdult · 09/10/2023 16:25

Wave protected Becca's virginity so she wouldn't get close to anyone else and reveal to them what she had seen in the dorm the night before Daiyu disappeared (Daiyu going out the window etc). And also so that she and Mazu would stay on good terms.

AppropriateAdult · 09/10/2023 16:26

Wade realised that Abigail had killed Daiyu and sent her away from the farm for that reason. Mazu never knew (I don't think? Don't have the book to hand just now.)

Novemberish · 09/10/2023 16:51

Ah, that makes sense now. Deliberately designing her to be aloof and apart from other church members and ensuring she'd never be alone with another person - e.g. in the retreat rooms.

fruitstick · 09/10/2023 17:22

Yes. She got the full blown brain washing treatment.

Wace realised Abigail had killed Daiyu but didn't want the scandal, then realised that he could capitalise on her death with Cherie's story.

So he didn't want Becca telling anyone else that it was Cherie that told her about Daiyu's spirit, rather than it coming from him.

So he isolated her and made sure she would never confide in anyone else.

Calmdown14 · 09/10/2023 17:46

Becca was also moved out of the farm and received even more indoctrination than ordinary members, hence her presentation almost like a robotic girl guide.

She has lost all frame of reference beyond the church.

Mazu hates the spirit wives so she cannot go with Jonathan for fear of Mazu pushing her out (as we are shown through Louise) but equally cannot be permitted to get close to anyone else.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 09/10/2023 19:45

One thing I’ve noticed on my second reading is that Robin’s spelling & handwriting deteriorated in one of her early letters but then seemed to improve again. You’d think as time went on they’d have got worse. Maybe she was acclimatising though.

Calmdown14 · 09/10/2023 20:59

@EmpressaurusOfCats I think that was the week she was demoted to the physical work group and so she was suffering from exhaustion and the lack of food more acutely.

Will has seemed to be in this group most of the time so it perhaps goes some way to explaining why despite his much referenced intelligence and argumentative side, he becomes so compliant.

EmpressaurusOfCats · 09/10/2023 21:39

Oh, that would make sense. Thanks @Calmdown14.

AppropriateAdult · 09/10/2023 22:30

I don't get a sense of authorial condemnation about Murphy's issues with alcohol. I think Strike is well aware that he's being a bit of a dick about it, and at least he's largely keeping his thoughts to himself. The fact that Robin doesn't seem to have an issue with Murphy's past says more about JKR's attitude to it, I would guess.

SnoreyCat · 09/10/2023 22:48

Finished this today on Audible and loved it. About to start again. It has so much depth and is so so clever.

Completely agree with @MargotBamborough about the themes relevant to gender ideology:

“In no particular order, massive safeguarding failures being overlooked because no one wants to be called out for bigotry, mass brainwashing of people to believe absolute nonsense or at least pretend to believe it because they're afraid to speak out, the way vulnerable people such as kids from troubled backgrounds or with autism are particularly susceptible, women in the role of handmaidens and collaborating in their own abuse”

I missed the thing about Emily and the vegetables, utterly heartbreaking and such a clear example of the chilling cruelty they had come to accept.

Loved the end but am furious with Strike - I think he’s screwed it up. The writing is completely realistic that that is how he would say it, especially given that he is thinking about the advice he gave Charlotte about being proactive in finding happiness, but Robin deserves so much more than to hear that he’s in love with her as part of a conversation about his ex-fiancée’s suicide note! I imagine she will tell him so, he’ll huff and that might delay the next step for them.

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