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Original poster

Lucy Letby appeal

1000 replies

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 16/09/2023 07:33

Sorry if not allowed to discuss here but just seem that this vile creature plans to appeal against her original sentence as per yesterday’s news. Her defence team is leading this potential appeal.

WTAF?!

They haven’t reached a verdict on is it 6 or 7 poor other little babies who died and she’s suspected, I thought?

So sad for the poor parents and babies still.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
25
itsgettingweird · 16/09/2023 11:36

Mirabai you are discussing neonatal deaths. The death in LL case are perinatal deaths. Completely different statistics. You can't equate anything to do with neonatal deaths to deaths on a NICU.

And statistics not tell a small part anyway. In nearly all the cases of death and collapses on babies involved in this case they were unexpected.

Mirabai · 16/09/2023 12:00

itsgettingweird · 16/09/2023 11:36

Mirabai you are discussing neonatal deaths. The death in LL case are perinatal deaths. Completely different statistics. You can't equate anything to do with neonatal deaths to deaths on a NICU.

And statistics not tell a small part anyway. In nearly all the cases of death and collapses on babies involved in this case they were unexpected.

LL was a neonatal nurse working on the neonatal unit that’s what the stats pertain to.

Oneearringlost · 16/09/2023 12:13

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 16/09/2023 08:40

Please people, read Thedancingbear’s 8.04 post where she said she was taking the piss.

Sorry, not good enough.

MaryShelleysMonster · 16/09/2023 12:14

StBrides · 16/09/2023 10:58

And makes me genuinely fearful for this country's future

Show quote history

But they might not be in this country. MN doesn't only have UK posters. I always find a marked difference between people in RL and what 'people' post on social media and I don't think it can all be attributed to people feeling unencumbered by expectation on social media.

jlpth · 16/09/2023 12:15

PerfectMatch · 16/09/2023 08:21

OP, if the evidence against her is as clear as you seem to think, why did it take the jury 110 hours to reach a verdict?

Probably because they had to discuss 10 months of evidence relating to over 20 separate charges!

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 16/09/2023 12:16

Oneearringlost · 16/09/2023 12:13

Sorry, not good enough.

Show quote history

I have absolutely no idea what you mean.

Robertius · 16/09/2023 12:34

The jury took that long as there were 22 charges against her. They took about a day a charge on average which seems about right given the very serious nature of the charges. What were you expecting?

978q · 16/09/2023 13:10

Dr George Kokai consultant at Alder Hey children's hospital, his included submission to the Bench, included in the defence's skeleton argument, would give said Bench food for thought.

Dr George Kokai is every bit as eminent, as Dr Andreas Manderide.

WhiteFire · 16/09/2023 13:26

978q · 16/09/2023 13:10

Dr George Kokai consultant at Alder Hey children's hospital, his included submission to the Bench, included in the defence's skeleton argument, would give said Bench food for thought.

Dr George Kokai is every bit as eminent, as Dr Andreas Manderide.

Why wasn't he called initially? If his submission is so good why wasn't he called on? He was at Alder Hey, he must have known what was going on with the Countess.

Tessisme · 16/09/2023 13:31

Ah, didn't realise you were being sarcastic @thedancingbear.

978q · 16/09/2023 13:32

You don't know anything about him, do you, or what he does, that will be rectified though.

StBrides · 16/09/2023 13:59

MaryShelleysMonster · 16/09/2023 12:14

But they might not be in this country. MN doesn't only have UK posters. I always find a marked difference between people in RL and what 'people' post on social media and I don't think it can all be attributed to people feeling unencumbered by expectation on social media.

Show quote history

🤞

WhiteFire · 16/09/2023 15:05

So Dr George Kokai is a pathologist, he carried out the first PM on baby C.

Even moreso then is the question that if his evidence is so important to the defence why was he not called to the trial?

heistgeist · 16/09/2023 15:33

The lack of critical thinking skills of some posters here is horrifying. Lynch mob mentality.

Everyone should have fair access to justice. The Guildford 4 were convicted on a confession which was later found to have been extracted by force.

There is a school of thought that LL was convicted on statistical evidence which was presented in a manner which was her guilt. There are other ways in which these statistics can be interpreted and presented.

There is also concern over the air embolism theory which is based on a small study done in 1989. Dr Dewi Evans is seen in some circles as neither a reliable nor competent witness.

There was a report by Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health which was highly critical of the consultants. After this was published the police were called.

LL was a normal girl with close friendships. No behaviour which would indicate any narcissistic tendencies or psychopathy.

I do believe that any behaviour she has, either good or bad, is retrofitted as evidence of her guilt or innocence.

Do I think LL is guilty or innocent? I have doubts over the soundness of her conviction. I do not have a strong belief in her guilt or innocence.

This means she could be:
Guilty, found guilty
Guilty, found not guilty
Not guilty, found guilty
Not guilty, found not guilty

It is a complex case.

Mouseflap · 16/09/2023 15:36

Meanwhile she was found guilty following a fair trial in which statistics for example wasn't the entirety of the evidence. I agree she should have as much right as anyone to apply for an appeal but I think whatever happens some won't believe it.

ZadocPDederick · 16/09/2023 15:44

978q · 16/09/2023 13:10

Dr George Kokai consultant at Alder Hey children's hospital, his included submission to the Bench, included in the defence's skeleton argument, would give said Bench food for thought.

Dr George Kokai is every bit as eminent, as Dr Andreas Manderide.

He didn't come to court to present his evidence on oath or submit himself to cross-examination. I'm guessing that in practice it wasn't that favourable to the defence.

ZadocPDederick · 16/09/2023 15:52

There is also concern over the air embolism theory which is based on a small study done in 1989. Dr Dewi Evans is seen in some circles as neither a reliable nor competent witness.

His evidence was fully supported by a second medical expert and the doctors involved in caring for the babies concerned. The jurors who listened to him clearly found his ooo

itsgettingweird · 16/09/2023 16:04

Mirabai sorry. I got it round the wrong way. Neonatal deaths dropped. Perinatal deaths are separate and I've seen statistics about them used to claim those rose after she left. But it's perinatal deaths that don't relate to the case.

(My dyslexic brain totally mucked that one up!)

itsgettingweird · 16/09/2023 16:08

ZadocPDederick · 16/09/2023 15:52

There is also concern over the air embolism theory which is based on a small study done in 1989. Dr Dewi Evans is seen in some circles as neither a reliable nor competent witness.

His evidence was fully supported by a second medical expert and the doctors involved in caring for the babies concerned. The jurors who listened to him clearly found his ooo

I also don't think it helps when Lao claimed to know nothing about air embolism. Having just completed a course and training on it!

If (and I don't think she is) she is innocent she really didn't help herself.

Get up on the stand with tonnes,of evidence against you which showed you lied.

Then lie further.

But claim you're telling the truth and innocent 🤔

LizzieSiddal · 16/09/2023 16:15

@itsgettingweird yes she completed that course two weeks before the first baby was killed. The course was supposed to teach nurses how to do a certain procedure safely, so that air embolism did not occur.

Hawkins0009 · 16/09/2023 16:39

what basis is the appeal on ?

Mirabai · 16/09/2023 16:53

There is also concern over the air embolism theory which is based on a small study done in 1989. Dr Dewi Evans is seen in some circles as neither a reliable nor competent witness.

There is also concern about the fact he is a professional expert witness who contacted the police rather than the other way round. It seems from accounts filed over the course of the investigation and trial that he profited personally from his contribution to the case.

I’m horrified by the bad science inherent in his “air embolism” theory, which was not diagnosed at the time, but based on retrospective witness accounts, and on an outdated paper.

There is the potential for another Roy Meadows situation.

Mirabai · 16/09/2023 16:57

ZadocPDederick · 16/09/2023 15:52

There is also concern over the air embolism theory which is based on a small study done in 1989. Dr Dewi Evans is seen in some circles as neither a reliable nor competent witness.

His evidence was fully supported by a second medical expert and the doctors involved in caring for the babies concerned. The jurors who listened to him clearly found his ooo

You don’t need to be a medical expert to see the Swiss cheese size holes in the embolism theory, simply a basic scientific literacy.

978q · 16/09/2023 17:05



You are guessing covers it.

WhiteFire · 16/09/2023 17:05

It seems from accounts filed over the course of the investigation and trial that he profited personally from his contribution to the case.

You mean to say he got paid? Oh the scandal.

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