How to get a 9 year old/Year 5 organised before Secondary when they hate organisation?

[HatesOrganisationSoWont]

DD is 9, Year 5. Has Dyslexia, Dyspraxia and a medical condition.

She hates being organised. We’ve been late to school because she absolutely refuses to be hurried or rushed.

She won’t use a bag at all, we’ve tried different kinds she just refuses to put anything in it or carry it – now she’s Year 5 it’s starting to get difficult for her. She now has to carry water bottle, lunch box, PE kit (which is also not in a bag, she literally carries her tshirt, joggers and trainers) and sometimes an instrument as well (last year it was a glockenspiel, this year it’ll be a violin – these are provided by the school) she just doesn’t have enough hands and it’s unsustainable.

The schools I’ve looked at for her for after Primary don’t have lockers or they have lockers for Year 11 only. Not that I think she’d use it as she refuses to use her tray at school then gets upset when stuff goes missing. She will use her peg for her coat (which basically gets carried to school, hangs on her peg and then gets carried home again even in the depths of winter).

Consequences don’t work. We tried letting her drop things while she was walking and she just walks on and doesn’t care, if we let her get in trouble for not having the right stuff she just shrugs and doesn’t learn from it.

School are stumpted. Usually by this point in Primary they’ve learnt or found a bag they like or another way round it.

At home she’s the same, will leave her toys, rubbish, anything on the floor and literally doesn’t care if I take them away. She does Scouts which we thought might help but it doesn’t help. Her room is honestly so bad I can’t even open the door. She also sleeps with about 1000 million toys on her bed and doesn’t care, she either just dumps them on the floor or leaves them. If I tidy it up it’s messy again the moment she sees it tidy.

She is fine getting things out of drawers/trays/toy boxes but won’t put them away.

Do I just have to let her get on with and sink at Secondary? What will Secondary do that might make her take notice? I don’t think she can easily carry all her books + PE kit + food tech ingredients etc. for a day and walk the 1.1miles (or more) to the nearest secondary.

Any tips?

And is this normal?

I'm not sure about the bag situation - but I have seen plenty of parents acting as Sherpas at this point still, so I'm not sure if she is entirely alone with the issue.

Could you ask the school if she can bring her p.e kit in at the start of term and leave it on a peg until the end of term. It might get a little ripe but better than a twice weekly battle?

Maybe radically reduce the sheer enormity of toys in her room. Not as some kind of punishment but just so she has a fighting chance of keeping the space straight?

Pull along small suitcase? (The hand luggage type?) They have a huge amount of stuff to lug about at secondary.
My son has ADD traits (no diagnosis) and is similar in the can’t be rushed, doesn’t listen to instructions, never has his s**t together department. He’s older (13) and just have to let him learn the hard way - I spent all of primary checking his bag, taking his forgotten lunch, asking for yet another form he’d lost. I’m sure it is related to being ND but they still need to develop some strategies to help themselves. He has a visual reminder chart of what he needs and reminders on his phone. He still thinks he has a Time Machine though and never leaves enough time to get where he needs to be.

I think at age 9 this isn't normal, no. There's definitely something else going on. Are there any other behaviour that doesn't fit developmentally? How is she at school / home with other things?

@Desecratedcoconut this was suggested by school and others in the class do this but DD still won't use a bag, if we put it in a bag on her peg she ignores it preferring to use school stuff or do it in her uniform, there's no where to keep it within school not in a bag so DD just lugs it back and forth.

@FusionChefGeoff What sorts of things do you mean?

2 DDs with dyspraxia here.

Bribe/reward/non negotiable for using a bag. I wonder if it is an 'out of sight out of mind' thing, in which case a clear bag if such things exist, might help.

Checklists in her room, & by the front door. Run through checklist every day.

Help her tidy her room daily, no electronics (or whatever) until it is done.

Moving forward you may well need to scaffold more than most parents, I had to help DD1 with bag well into y9, and also with working out which homework to do when, and revision timetables.

You'll need a designated space for school books wherever she does homework.

Once she has a phone, phone reminders are good, but only if you don't clear the reminder until after the job is actually done...

@TeenDivided She won't use any kind of bag, the school reading folders are in a clear plastic wallet and she won't use it. I suggested a clear bag before and she said she was fine the way she was. I've spent so much on bags that don't get used it's honestly ridiculous. Letting her pick a bag doesn't help either, she'll say "I like this but won't use it"

She won't use checklists, we've tried, she sees it as nagging and just shuts down. If I leave her with one she won't check it even if I remind her she just says she doesn't need one.

Something like this? https://www.amazon.com/2-Pack-Transparent-Bag-Stadium-Approved/dp/B01NBMLRP7
or https://www.amazon.co.uk/Backpack-Transparent-Daypack-Waterproof-Rucksack/dp/B09YHRZ6R5/ref=asc_df_B09YHRZ6R5/?tag=googshopuk-21&linkCode=df0&hvadid=570395741165&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4529173652704298507&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=1007024&hvtargid=pla-1661094453723&th=1&psc=1

@TeenDivided That is one I've not seen before, I will definitely discuss it with her tomorrow when she's home from her dads.

My DD1 was checklist resistant to start with, but I got her there in the end.
Keep modelling it.
Maybe let her fail in Primary so she can learn the consequences when they don't matter so much?
What is she motivated by?

Somehow you need to get to the root of WHY she wont use a bag or the tray.

Is it related to defiance, or demand avoidance? How is she with other rules?

@TeenDivided Nothing that we can work out. She hates sport, likes Scouts but doesn't care if she doesn't go, isn't that into craft or art. Consequences don't help, she just shrugs and says ok. Rewards don't work either though as she's literally not motivated by anything. If I offer money/a sticker/to buy a toy she just says that she's not bothered.

@NoSquirrels Absolutely fine bar tidying up. She is fine in terms of all other behaviour at school, has friends, gets party invites and invites people to her party and they come.

When my DDs have been unreasonably resistant to things there has usually been an underlying reason.
For DD1 it turned out she struggled to follow bulleted instructions in order, so often she said 'I prefer to do my own thing' as a diversion.
DD2 would shut down and just refuse things, but usually it was because she was overwhelmed by what was required / didn't have confidence she could do it.

Seth Perler is amazing - so many resources and such good help for kids with executive functioning challenges. Ignore all the salesy stuff as there is so much free content it will keep you going for ages. Here:

https://sethperler.com/resources-3/

DD1 couldn't tidy up. She literally couldn't see how to go about it. She was well into teens before we got there.

So if you said

DD, you MUST use a bag. I do not mind what bag you choose, but it is a non-negotiable rule that you must put your lunch, water bottle and PE kit in a bag.

what would happen?

If you physically put the things into a bag in the morning, what would happen? She’d take them out, have a tantrum - what is her behaviour that means you haven’t insisted so far?

She may have problems with object permanence meaning if she cannot see it she forgets it exists basically.

This is not normal. I don’t know anything about her conditions but if it is due to her disabilities isn’t it down to you and the school to accommodate her and not down to her to learn to use a bag or to clean her room/be tidy?

So, for water bottle, can she get a camel back or water bottle in a strap type one that is a wearable?

For PE days, can the school just allow her to wear her PE kit to school on the days she has PE?

Can all work be sent home digitally, printed out at home, scanned and sent back to school digitally instead of there being any hard copy folders? Go paperless.

Later on, she could be issued an iPad at school and an iPad at home and with both linked via iCloud can bounce between the two without having to carry a pad back and forth.

Apply for DLA if you haven’t already as her limitations sound severe.

This is what I’m wondering. If she’s dyslexic and has dyscalculia there is a strong chance some executive function issues - which can mean struggles with organisation- are also going on for her. In order to solve it you need her to explain what the problem with a bag is, and if she can’t articulate it you need to tease out the reason.

@NoSquirrels She refuses to hold it so I end up carrying it to school but then she won't take it into class, she'll leave it at home/in the road with her stuff in it and not care about the consequences of not having her stuff.

She would rather do anything that have a bag.

Same with her tray, she won't put stuff in it. If the teacher insists DD either takes the stuff out or mysteriously loses her stuff.

She sounds very anxious and could be hypervidulent to forgetting something so literally can't let it out her sight. Look into 'object permanence and ADD'.

Please drop the notion of 'consequences', if she needed a walking frame you wouldn't punish her for not managing without it.

9 is young, why are you over emphasising secondary, another 3 years away surely? She needs your support not being left to sink.

Some of what you describe is classic female ADD type behaviours, research strategies used for them in reliable literature.

Object permanence & executive function issues are what I'm pondering about too. Maybe a suitable TA could chat with her, or even an Ed Psych?

If it’s not object permanence and executive function then the other option is that it’s a physical sensory thing.

I think it is very reasonable to try to find solutions now with 2 years before secondary. The organisational requirements of secondary are way higher than primary so getting some basics in place in the next 2 years will help.

it is definitely worth unpacking the issues she has with bags because carrying around everything without one in secondary is pretty much a non starter.