Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

'Parental alienation' and BBC News article on court ordered contact

63 replies

girlwhowearsglasses · 05/09/2023 12:28

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66534732

I am just 😲at this - perhaps I shouldn't be. Kids are being sent to the custody of abusive fathers because they have played the 'parental alienation' card and said it's the mum making it up.

This is shocking :-(

Child looking out of an aircraft window

Family courts: 'We kidnapped our kids from abusive dads and fled the UK’

Mothers are breaking the law because they fear court-ordered contact with fathers is unsafe for their kids.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66534732

OP posts:
lapsedbookworm · 05/09/2023 17:05

Katypp · 05/09/2023 16:52

Well we've been married nearly 20 years and I was allowed in court so saw it myself, but whatever

Wow that would go against all the court rules now. Partners are certainly not allowed in. How fascinating that they apparently used to be more open

Katypp · 05/09/2023 17:08

lapsedbookworm · 05/09/2023 17:05

Wow that would go against all the court rules now. Partners are certainly not allowed in. How fascinating that they apparently used to be more open

I can't make my mind up whether you are being sarcastic or not, but I can assure you I was in every hearing and was asked questions by the judge. My presence was requested by my dh's barrister as his ex was being so obviously unreasonable that he thought my presence as a sort of witness might help. The judge agreed.

Wishitsnows · 05/09/2023 17:14

The new partner being allowed in court is quite disturbing. The court is there to determine schedules for a child to see each parent. Having a non parent there could be seen as quite intimidating and has a two against one feel to it. Really shocking the judge would allow such a thing to happen.

LaBorde · 05/09/2023 17:20

I was allowed in as a GM

Whattodo112222 · 05/09/2023 17:23

I was always under the impression that all parties had to agree to a partner coming into the court. I was at court recently and I was in a room with another lady and she refused her exes new partner coming in and that was that.

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:23

But equally @ClaudiaWanklemanwomen are statistically more likely to coercively control children and alienate them against Farhers, as they have more access to them, traditionally, after separation. So...

  1. do you know what coercive control means?
  2. do you have statistical data on coercive control of children?
  3. does that data show more women than men do it?

It sounds like you are making an assumption that more women must prevent their children seeing their dads, because more have RP status, but that's far from "statistically more likely"

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:26

The only man I know who claims parental alienation has had three women prevent him seeing their children, been arrested for harassment and breaching injuctions by at least 2 of those women, and had a previous relationship break down when social services approached the partner to say he was an abuse risk and they'd consider removing her child if she stayed with him.
So.....parental alienation or abuser? Hmm, tricky

Katypp · 05/09/2023 17:32

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:26

The only man I know who claims parental alienation has had three women prevent him seeing their children, been arrested for harassment and breaching injuctions by at least 2 of those women, and had a previous relationship break down when social services approached the partner to say he was an abuse risk and they'd consider removing her child if she stayed with him.
So.....parental alienation or abuser? Hmm, tricky

Ex completely alienated her daughter from her first husband, with the six-year-old telling CAFCASS (that fight went to court too) she was terrified of her dad but being unable to say why other than mummy said he was nasty. This was noted by CAFCASS.
She also told my husband that she received no maintenence for her daughter, but this was found to be a lie when my husband met her ex.
Innocent victim fighting for her children or alianator? Hmm tricky

newwings · 05/09/2023 17:36

The courts are a shit show, no time to go through documents or to look at the facts, relying heavily on social workers or CAFCASs who so stretched thin often drumming up reports the night before or hardly stick to any appointments in favour of which parent comes across as the most charming.

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:42

Ex completely alienated her daughter from her first husband, with the six-year-old telling CAFCASS (that fight went to court too) she was terrified of her dad but being unable to say why other than mummy said he was nasty. This was noted by CAFCASS.
She also told my husband that she received no maintenence for her daughter, but this was found to be a lie when my husband met her ex.

Eh?

Your husband says his ex wife alienated a child from a previous marriage to a different man? And despite carcass noting the lies they let the ex wife stop her first ex-husband see the kids? And your husband telling you a story about his exes ex proves alienation?

Have I got that right?

MintJulia · 05/09/2023 17:42

That's the fundamental issue with 'closed courts'. Reporting on their actions is illegal, so they have the ability to become kangaroo courts that answer to no-one.

The problems will only be solved when reporting is allowed and their absurd and dangerous decisions are brought into the day light.

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:44

Both parents and the children deserve family court proceedings to be private. Its not to investigate crimes, no "justice needs to be seen to be done".

Katypp · 05/09/2023 17:45

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:42

Ex completely alienated her daughter from her first husband, with the six-year-old telling CAFCASS (that fight went to court too) she was terrified of her dad but being unable to say why other than mummy said he was nasty. This was noted by CAFCASS.
She also told my husband that she received no maintenence for her daughter, but this was found to be a lie when my husband met her ex.

Eh?

Your husband says his ex wife alienated a child from a previous marriage to a different man? And despite carcass noting the lies they let the ex wife stop her first ex-husband see the kids? And your husband telling you a story about his exes ex proves alienation?

Have I got that right?

Yes that's right

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:53

Weird example. Not particularly convincing either Confused

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:55

I'm not sure 6 year olds are that good at articulating why they are scared tbh and I doubt a 6 year old saying they were scared would be the only reason cafcass recommended no contact. The BBC articles over the last couple of days show they will even discount evidence of harm to protect fathers rights to have contact.

NewspaperTaxis · 05/09/2023 18:03

Agree that this has been known about a while, but there's something odd afoot because it's been kept under wraps and most likely will continue to be. For instance, nothing about these revelations in today's press as far as I know. Channel 4 ran a piece on parents having to go on the run with kids back in 2014 or thereabouts with almost Secret Army-style Lifeline characters getting them into exile but it never became a running story, never a narrative so on it goes. Local authorities are quite dark, quite nasty with long-running corruption going on and money to sue - Westminster politicians are far easier prey really, plus they're known about whereas council officials keep their IDs out of the papers.

Heather Brooke who exposed the expenses scandal only for it to be nicked by the Telegraph as a scoop did a book about the UK Freedom of Information maybe a decade ago and was scathing about the secretive family courts.

My angle is adult safeguarding, Surrey County Council went after me and my elderly mother possibly because I'd whistleblown a failing care home in Banstead to the local press in 2014, partly because I'd twigged that they were killing off the elderly in care homes via dehydration to save a bob or two - though at the time I didn't realise it was deliberate. They try to use the same strategy - make out you're likely to 'abscond' with your elderly parent from the care home, as if you're gonna go hiding out in Surrey pub gardens or coffee shops, keeping out of sight! But by creating this narrative, they can have you barred from the care home under a kind of 'suss' law - this allows them to carry out the dehydration programme without interference from meddling kids.

Samantha Baldwin is one mother who hit the news for going on the run with her kid, she got caught and the judge was scathing. She did look a bit wide-eyed in the photos, think she bangs on about satanic cults and all that - then again when you find out what actually does go on, you can't quite dismiss it out of hand.

Sarah Langford not long ago wrote a book called In Your Defence and one chapter 'Maggie' deals with how councils nick kids off a parent and put them in foster care, the system is rigged against them. It's a little unclear to me how it's a money-making racket - certainly Surrey has been in on the act a while now - though a glance at historical scandals in foster care in Gallsway, Ireland, the subject of a recent ITV documentary and perhaps that BBC drama currently showing - give an insight into the scope of it generating cash. In that instance, even the US Embassy was complicit.

Katypp · 05/09/2023 18:14

AdamRyan · 05/09/2023 17:55

I'm not sure 6 year olds are that good at articulating why they are scared tbh and I doubt a 6 year old saying they were scared would be the only reason cafcass recommended no contact. The BBC articles over the last couple of days show they will even discount evidence of harm to protect fathers rights to have contact.

I rest my case 😂
Bad things are only believable when the baddy is a man

TheFormidableMrsC · 05/09/2023 19:07

During protracted proceedings, I was accused of exactly this as resident parent. My ex husband and OW sat and wrote an absolutely shocking statement for the court which listed every disgusting thing they had done to me and my children as if I had done it. I couldn't believe what I was reading. It was DARVO on an epic scale. Parental alienation was mentioned repeatedly. I had done no such thing. Fortunately I was able to rebuke every single thing with actual evidence. I have no doubt that if I had had a less experienced Cafcass officer or a judge having a bad day, the outcome would have been utterly horrific. I know of a least one case close to me where the abusive father was given residency having abandoned his child 8 years previously but who rocked up to court claiming to be "alienated". He has now alienated that child's mother who is too exhausted and frightened to fight any further. The whole damned system needs a massive overhaul.

lastminutewednesday · 05/09/2023 19:15

I don't fully agree @AdamRyan. If someone has entirely false allegations made against them in a bid for the accuser to get full custody of their children and if they are able to prove they are Entirely innocent of what they are accused of-and yet still have to pay 20k court costs and incur the stress involved, I think it should be reported, and justice should be done-against the person that makes the false allegations. In our case my Dh's ex wife, who falsely accused him of being a drug addict and of domestic violence-which was relatively
Easy to disprove-but still cost a fortune in cash, stress, and reputational damage. (Because as we've seen from
This thread alone, people don't seem to ever think it possible that a woman and a mother could also be a liar, doing it to get her own way-in our case trying to move their children 100 miles away to live with a man she had known for 4 months).

mumyes · 05/09/2023 19:19

Shocking. Thank god it has been given a high profile airing. May or soon change.

Katypp · 05/09/2023 19:20

TheFormidableMrsC · 05/09/2023 19:07

During protracted proceedings, I was accused of exactly this as resident parent. My ex husband and OW sat and wrote an absolutely shocking statement for the court which listed every disgusting thing they had done to me and my children as if I had done it. I couldn't believe what I was reading. It was DARVO on an epic scale. Parental alienation was mentioned repeatedly. I had done no such thing. Fortunately I was able to rebuke every single thing with actual evidence. I have no doubt that if I had had a less experienced Cafcass officer or a judge having a bad day, the outcome would have been utterly horrific. I know of a least one case close to me where the abusive father was given residency having abandoned his child 8 years previously but who rocked up to court claiming to be "alienated". He has now alienated that child's mother who is too exhausted and frightened to fight any further. The whole damned system needs a massive overhaul.

I agree. But from a starting point that most men are not abusers and some women are not the innocent victims they claim to be. I said upthread that my story isn't usually believed and within a few posts I was accused of making it up. Why do posters struggle with the concept of a father who just wants to see his children but is being prevented on doing so by his ex? There is seemingly no problem accepting abuse with no proof when the accuser is the mother

coodawoodashooda · 05/09/2023 19:29

girlwhowearsglasses · 05/09/2023 12:28

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66534732

I am just 😲at this - perhaps I shouldn't be. Kids are being sent to the custody of abusive fathers because they have played the 'parental alienation' card and said it's the mum making it up.

This is shocking :-(

It's very easy for them to do this.

KenAdams · 05/09/2023 20:00

There was a MNer that posted quite a few threads about her situation a few years back and it was absolutely horrific. That was the first I'd heard of this. I don't think I ever saw how she got on.

ShipSpace · 05/09/2023 20:10

The BBC article gives details of cases where full residency of the children has been given to CONVICTED PAEDOPHILES.

You seem to be trying to justify this someway? Or have I misunderstood?

ShipSpace · 05/09/2023 20:10

Sorry - that was to @Katypp