Non-story RAAC problem

[HowMuchMore2]

There are approx 22,000 schools in England and the schools that have had to close are around 100. In 2018 it was highlighted it could be a problem - nothing was done about it.

Why is it such a big story all of a sudden? 100 schools will have to ship in portakabins because part or all of their buildings are deemed unsafe.

Everyone is up in arms about it, it's such a non-story! Worked up by journalists at a slow news time.

There are way way bigger issues out there.

Do you not understand that there have been further collapses since? Yes its been luck so far that children weren't hurt but that luck will run out with disastrous circumstances. I have never in my life been involved in a car accident which has needed my seat belt to save me but I still use it every time this is the same its a small risk (but getting bigger daily) but if it goes wrong it will be a disaster.

Just to be clear for those who are hard of reading - I don't want children to be crushed - sorry that spoils your attacks towards me. It would be good if we could stick to the point.

Doesn’t want kids to be crushed but sees this as a total non story. Are you actually reading the responses here OP?

It's purely a matter of luck that the latest incident happened during the school holidays. More are inevitable and the next time might not be so lucky. And it's not just schools it's hospitals too. The issues have been known about as long as this government has been in power so let's not pretend they haven't had a chance to fix it.

You're right. It should have been a big story a long time ago.

And it will be an even bigger story if children and their teachers are killed at their school because their building collapses. Better for it to be big story now, before that happens.

But the point is if these steps and more aren't taken children could be crushed. It isn't some minor risk, its quite a big risk and the risk is increasing

This should be a massive story. At the conservative end of calculations based on each affected school in the '100' category only being a 1 form entry primary school (highly improbable) you're looking at 21,000 children being taught in buildings that could literally collapse on top of them...that's not counting the teaching and support staff.

Old buildings do collapse if not maintained properly Building collapse - BBC news link

The logistics for getting this sorted are hugely expensive and time consuming so either the affected children are out of school for an unacceptable amount of time...or they return to being taught in a building that could crush them to death, or if they're lucky only injure them and inflict asbestos on their lungs.

Let's put this another way. The coal board were repeatedly warned about unstable coal tips in the Welsh valleys. They repeatedly downplayed the seriousness of it because of the amount of money it would cost to fix - then Aberfan happened.

Yep, nothing to see here this isn't remotely newsworthy. Don't be so obtuse!

It's a story because:
a) The number of school currently closed may well be the tip of the iceberg. These are the schools where a significant risk has currently been identified. School buildings have not necessarily been inspected by specialists and information from LAs/academies has not been received for every school.

b) It has been know for a long time that this type of construction was used for many schools and other public buildings currently in use, but the government have not taken any action until essentially forced to by circumstances- meaning that many people have been put at risk for a long time, and in all likelihood others are still in dangerous buildings.

Re use of portakabins- in the 90s I went to a school that had to be closed at short notice due to a danger identified in the building. It took several weeks for portakabins to be found and put in place. This was to replace one section of a relatively small school so I can't imagine it will be easy or quick to find enough for hundreds of entire schools at the same time. When they did arrive they did not make good classrooms. They were hot in the summer and freezing cold in the winter (to the extent that school was closed several times because it was too cold). Sound travelled in to and between them more than a proper building, so lessons were often disrupted by noise from nearby classrooms/people moving around the school etc (particularly problematic when doing exams/tests etc). They often leaked in particularly bad weather and were not at all secure. They also took up almost all the non-grassed outside space in the school. This would be more of an issue now, where many schools have very limited outdoor space for eg. sports/playtime etc. In my case the sports hall was not impacted and we were able to move all science to the one remaining usable lab so that wasn't a problem but it could be for many of the closed schools. Another issue will be toileting facilities where entire schools are unusable- particularly for youngest pupils who cannot safely take themselves outdoors between buildings and navigate steps etc alone (not to mention the hygiene problems associated with hundreds of children using 'temporary' facilities all day every day). We ended up using 'temporary' classrooms for several years whilst waiting for funding for replacement buildings, by the end of which they were in a poor state of repair. I suspect that at least some of the schools closed this time will be in a similar position.

I don’t see that teachers have been saying they’re hard done by in respect of this issue. What I have seen is school staff moving furniture to try to accommodate temporary classrooms in facilities that were probably not designed for them and doing itwith the start of the academic year in days.

The issue is that this has been known of for years and has been ignored by the current government. I don’t know if they thought it would simply go away, but it will get bigger and more unmanageable as more is discovered.

It will cost an absolute fortune, so reducing the numbers that require urgent attention, over the last few years, has now come back to bite Rishi et al.

The one that collapsed over the summer holidays was one of the ones that had been inspected and passed as safe. Playing russian roulette with kids in never going to play out well with the public. Funny that.

It seems quite localised so I’m not sure if only certain areas have been surveyed? Two of the biggest secondaries in our county aren’t opening this week so it’s affecting lots of people I know. But family in another area 100 miles away say they have zero schools affected.

But children have been and still are at risk of being crushed, which makes this a big story. It's not a case of there only being 100 schools who can ring up for a portakabin and everything is fixed quickly. There are potentially many more schools, a collapse could happen without warning at any time, repairs and rebuilding will be a long and costly process, a lot of disruption is being caused and it can't all be remedied with portakabins - why wouldn't this be a major news story?

So to get this straight, OP...

You do think it would be a big story if children get crushed by a crumbling school building.

But you don't think the fact that the government has very knowingly got us into a situation where that very thing has been deemed by professionals to be very likely to happen should be a big story.

Can you explain the logic there?

It doesn’t take a genius to see there are other bigger issues; but that doesn’t mean this issue isn’t important (which it very much is)

@PearlRuby

Our LA haven’t started surveying yet. We are a concrete city that was blitzed very heavily. Well over half of our infrastructure was built quickly after WW2 so I would be amazed if we never had any RAAC schools. I suspect we will know more over the following weeks. There’s a real shortage of RICS surveyors too so it’s a perfect storm.

@HowMuchMore2 - I believe this is an important story for several reasons.

Firstly, this issue has been known about for 5 years - maybe longer! Yes, the ceiling that collapsed did not hurt anyone - but that was sheer luck - and it wasn't the only collapse then - there was also a ceiling collapse in a university building. The authorities have 5 years to do inspections, and to remediate any issues on a planned basis, rather than it becoming an urgent situation.

In fact, according to the Times today, back in 2002 there was a similar issue with a similar type of concrete, and experts warned back then that there were risks with this and similar types of it.

Secondly, this RAAC concrete is not just in schools - it is also in Crown Courts, Universities, hospitals and other public buildings - some of which are occupied 24 hours a day, so a collapse has a higher risk of hurting someone.

Basically, the Government and the local authorities have known buildings containing this RAAC could collapse, and if people were in the building at the time, it could cause injuries or even deaths, and they have done absolutely NOTHING about it - and have merrily allowed children to carry on learning in classrooms which could fall on their heads. How is that not an issue?

The issue with RAAC is that it has a very open, bubbly texture - like an Aero bar - and its strength comes from reinforcing bars within it, but the texture means that if any water gets in, it can get to the bars and cause them to rust - and as they are what provides the strength in the concrete, it becomes susceptible to collapse. Add to that the fact that, when this was being used, flat roofed buildings were in vogue, and flat roof buildings are notorious for water ingress, and you have a perfect recipe for rusted supports and crumbling concrete, over people's heads.

This story is not some small, stand-alone issue. It highlights, yet again, a VERY BIG 'bigger issue' - the chronic, almost criminal, underinvestment in public services and facilities by the Tory government.

I thought you said that it was an opportunity for teachers to claim how hard done by they were?

That’s exactly what the OP said. That this news story was just another opportunity for teachers to say how hard done by they are. Apparently not teacher bashing though.

Just embarassing.

That and the only real problem is parents will need to make alternative arrangements for childcare. I don't think the realities of the situation have sunk in yet. This isn't going to be just a day or 2. A school near me needs rebuilding but there isn't the space for alternative arrangements so for the last few years its been a bodge maintenance to keep it going. It probably has raac too but it's got other serious issues. The school is a deathtrap and would probably be condemned if they had anywhere else the pupils could go.

I did wonder if that was the case when I saw the bbc list seemed to have lots of schools in certain areas like Bradford and Essex. Suspect this could be an enormous can of worms unfortunately

If you think they're less of a problem than what is your point?

If you got that wrong, and you think they're more of a problem, then presumably you know about them... from the news, so you realise that quite often the news has more than one story on?

Must be mad to live in your world OP. News should never report on anything that you aren't personally interested in.

On the whole they are sticking to the point, very patiently explaining to you exactly why it’s a big issue.

The attacks on teachers stuff you’re on your own with though. You started it, own it.

There was a headteacher on the radio this morning of a primary school where RAAC was found earlier this year. So far she says they have spent £31,000 on alternative measures and the repairs haven't even been done yet.

£31,000 extra - so far from their budget, when they're already struggling to fund teaching and support staff, SEND provision, energy bills, supporting children in poverty. And they will still have to keep spending more until the issue is fixed.

But yes, 'just get yourself some portakabins and shift a couple of desks' is one way of putting it I suppose.