Should council tax finally be abolished?

[writingoutloud]

Hi all, firstly sorry for the rant but I'm starting this thread because i came across this article in The Guardian (see below) about how a good number of local councils are going bankrupt, including Woking and Slough.

I mean, I'm just getting so sick of paying council tax myself especially since it's taxed AFTER my income tax, so essentially we are all DOUBLE TAXED.

I understand that bin waste removal, social care and fire department etc need to be paid (and so they should be) but this is not it. It has to change.

I'm just wondering what other people's thoughts are because in all honesty, this cost of living situation and seeing councils just do whatever they want with resident tax payers money seems to be getting out of hand, and who will probably get punished for it all and bail them all out... tax payers 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/28/at-least-26-english-councils-at-risk-of-bankruptcy-in-next-two-years

Lol you’ve swooped in making this big statement but given not actual solution to the problem?

Council tax works well as most people pay it but not everyone pays income tax or capital gains tax etc. I also think it’s right that it’s based on size of property which can encourage the elderly to downsize and free up the bigger houses for families who need the space.

Also your double tax argument is null and void given that all money is double taxed or triple taxes… or essentially always taxed… customers buy something that gets taxed by VAT => that income is then taxed as it’s paid for wages => then those wages are spend on items which have VAT it’s just a big cycle of money moving around.

as to double taxation, what about the VAT paid on literally most things, food, fuel

If you buy petrol or diesel, you're taxed three times: income tax on the money you earn to pay for it, then fuel tax is added to the actual price of the fuel, then VAT is levied on that total (tax-inclusive) value. I'm sure I read a claim once that it was technically illegal to charge VAT on tax, but I don't know if that was true or not.

Oh, plus the additional hidden 5% tax on petrol with the introduction of E10 'standard' petrol, making the (treble-taxed) fuel you buy 5% less efficient than before, with no reduction in the price or tax levels.

I agree that a lot of people on here will be too young to remember the poll tax riots. On paper, it maybe sounded fair; but it was appalling - effectively a tax on having been alive for over 18 years, regardless of whether you have any means to pay or not.

@frozendaisy

Thank you for the explanation. I do see what you mean about the amount/use of services. Although I disagree it would be as much as 25% difference, when you look at what council spend the money on. And regardless, I don't think it's fair to charge single people more than 50% as it's not generally a choice, and there are higher housing/bills costs already.

@DragonFly98
Single adults get a good deal when it comes to council tax. You don't get a 25% discount on your gas, electric, water, internet etc.

So because you're already having to pay proportionally more for other bills, you should also be screwed over when it comes to council tax?!
Surely if anything, council tax should be even more lenient to single adults considering they also have to pay more for somewhere to live and bills in the first place! (I'm not actually arguing for this, but it certainly shouldn't be more than half what a couple pay.)

Also dual adult households where one person is too sick or disabled to work or a carer for their disabled child get no discount despite having higher costs than a single parent or single person.

I thought there was already a council tax exemption that covered this? So the disabled adult is not counted in the calculation, so a 25% single person discount would apply. Perhaps it's only certain disabilities. If there isn't such an exemption, there absolutely should be. Also I'd add an exemption if an adult is a carer, as you describe.

I think the system could be overhauled to be broadly much fairer, and then add certain exemptions for specific circumstances. But the starting point should be paid per adult.

Also your double tax argument is null and void given that all money is double taxed or triple taxes… or essentially always taxed… customers buy something that gets taxed by VAT => that income is then taxed as it’s paid for wages => then those wages are spend on items which have VAT it’s just a big cycle of money moving around.

True - and when you actually realise how money comes into existence in the first place, the big picture is quite mind-numbing.

Thank you for the explanation. I do see what you mean about the amount/use of services. Although I disagree it would be as much as 25% difference, when you look at what council spend the money on. And regardless, I don't think it's fair to charge single people more than 50% as it's not generally a choice, and there are higher housing/bills costs already.

I'm not saying I agree with it at all, but I suppose the thinking is that single people get to have all the property to themselves, whereas those in couples 'have to' share - kind of like most hotels charging more for a single room than half the cost of a double.

It's a massive insult to the great many single people who haven't actively chosen to be single (or widowed), but from a government/council bean-counter's cold pov, you're 'depriving' them of the ability to get the full 'tax value' of your property.

It's also galling to know that, the more affluent an area you live in, the cheaper your council tax will proportionally be. Councils need to take in a certain amount, so the more band H properties in an area, the less they proportionally need to charge for an 'average' band D property than an area with lots of band A properties. Effectively, the average charge in any area will be whatever band the majority of houses are in, rather than necessarily the nominal band D.

but I suppose the thinking is that single people get to have all the property to themselves

That shouldn't affect a person's tax liability!

but I suppose the thinking is that single people get to have all the property to themselves

That shouldn't affect a person's tax liability!

It does if, as under the current rules, the house itself attracts 50% of the due banded/rated property tax to be paid once occupied, plus an extra 25% of the total levy (based on an expectation of two adult occupants) per adult occupant, up to a maximum of two.

Council tax is primarily a way of making the existing housing stock 'pay for itself' - based on the requirements of the house and the occupants. Rates for the bands are set with the knowledge of how many taxable properties there are in the area. When councils complain about empty housing stock, they don't actually care about any impact of available housing on homeless people - they're just seeing the potential tax that it could be earning them if occupied.

Councils are going bankrupt because they are fucking incompetent. The much vaunted relaxation of government control over councils allowed them to use council tax payers money to make large and badly researched investments in property development etc etc. Woking council wanted to become "the Singapore of the West", their words, whilst neglecting to fund local services. Utter twats. They are now asking the community, only now, what they are prepared to give up funding for.

The Tories are pushing councils to the brink with the caps on Council Tax. You only have to look at the standards of public services provided by councils to see how we are all suffering as a result.

That said, our local council is making millions a year from poorly signed bus gate/dog free area fines. We are all paying in many ways for a reduced service.

The problem with council tax is that the band spectrum isn't wide enough, and the charges for expensive properties are too low.

If we abolish council tax, there will be then no annual property related taxes. What will happen, as had been happening for over a decade, is that more waves of global capital will pour into the British property market because British houses will be, essentially, free bank accounts: places to store money at a low or no cost.

And if that happens, no one on this island will be able to afford any kind of home at all.

Council tax, as it stands, is a highly regressive tax. In my area, a house worth four times the value of mine only pays twice the council tax I do. This really needs to change. The greater burden is placed on people in lower value homes.

I also wonder whether local government needs to be reined in somewhat or even split into different boards, as was the case back in the day. The sphere of activity now is just too large and over-centralised - and there's little coverage of it since local papers have gone down the swanney.

I think, personally, it just doesn't work to have a local council deliver everything from road repair and clearance to rubbish collection to adult social care to tourism to leisure facilities to children's social care to forestry to horticulture to museums and libraries and historic buildings maintenance...and so on.

It's just too much.

There's a lot of truth to this. The problem is that the kind of people who could deliver a "Singapore of the West" don't go into local government.

I reckon 99% of all the councillors I know never bother to actually read a budget statement. They don't care. What they care about is being tribal, as though the whole thing is a game of football and their team has to beat the opposing side. It's utterly pathetic.

In short, the wrong people are in the roles. In my area, we once had people who knew how shit worked in councillor roles: solicitors, accountants, doctors, business people, matrons, head teachers. Now we get twenty-somethings that still live at home and who've never paid a gas bill, and whose claim to fame is posting shit on twitter.

"I know there are going to be the "what about old Mr Jones living on his own". If you are a solo occupant of a large dwelling then downsize." - Mr Jones uses far less public services than the Smith family of 5 next door, 50% discount would be more appropriate and he should downsize because it more than he needs? That suggestions tainted red at to say the very least comrade! 🙄

In common with the NHS, waste is the issue along with pensions.

I heartily agree that we need far more than eight CT bands. If we believe that property tax is a good and fair thing to have, why would we give somebody in a £30m home an exemption for £29m of the value, but a poor person in a grotty bedsit gets no exemption whatsoever?

If income tax were organised the same way, we'd be charging full tax on the first £100,000 of income, but then anything above that would be tax-free!!

Councils are going bankrupt because they are fucking incompetent.

I do agree with this - councils and government. They get so obsessed with pointless expensive niche stuff that nobody cares about (but which may or may not give them a backhander), but ignore the basics that everybody is crying out about.

Nobody I know even really mentions HS2, much less is desperate for it to happen - but no matter what other things we have to cut back, it goes ahead regardless. Councils are mostly the same, just the amounts are much lower.

It also funds social care, children's services, highway maintenance, cemeteries, parks and greenspaces, litter and flytipping clearance, libraries, grants to support local charity sector... the list goes on.

It also funds social care, children's services, highway maintenance, cemeteries, parks and greenspaces, litter and flytipping clearance, libraries, grants to support local charity sector... the list goes on.

Loads of good, important, worthy stuff - but usually plenty of personal vanity projects as well, that could so easily be scrapped to focus on the important things.

Notice also how many will happily bring in/increase charges for parking and using public toilets, pleading slashed budgets and increased costs, but the odd expensive fringe things that nobody ever asked for go on unabated.

It’s unfair to people who live in northern shitholes - they have to pay way more than someone in a fancy flat in Kensington. If that niggle was sorted then I’d say it’s probably fair on the whole.

AFAIK at least one council - Croydon? - has gone bankrupt because it put many millions into stupidly risky investments. I dare say those responsible will still retire on nice fat pensions though, so that’s all right.

Completely agree
Would prefer a pay for what you use but would be an administrative nightmare.
Also agree that dog owners of dogs and horses should pay a tax (not so much small rodents though as additional waste is minimal)

You mention pensioners. Not all pensioners use the same which is why you can't discriminate by type of person this the reason each household should pay a nominal per person regardless of age.

I had just mentioned children as the original poll tax excluded them and I don't think anyone should be excluded as we all have an impact in different ways.

I live in Birmingham and really struggle to see where my council tax is going. They’ve wasted money on a useless payment system that now needs an extra god knows how much more million to pay and payouts for unequal pay.
In my area there are pot holes everywhere, children’s play areas run down and neglected. Rubbish and questionable shops being allowed to open. just pure neglect basically.
We barely see the police around. Children’s services and SEN services are crumbling. Lods of building work in the city centre for office blocks and expensive flats that nobody can afford to buy though so there’s that!
councillors get a £16k allowance each, the only time you see them is during election time where promises are made and broken.

council tax needs a overhaul with a clear breakdown of where funds go and what takes priority.,

I agree with @FatherJackHackettsUnderpantsHamper there needs to be more bands than 8, there needs to be a reshuffle of all bands for a fairer distribution and at the top end in particular. I used to work in council tax, we had 6 bed houses on H bands and then 10+ bedroomed homes etc all paying the same amount.

I think all second homes should have a mandatory full charge attached, if you can afford a second home then pay for it. It doesn't matter if you are not using the services available, not everyone living there is either. I am also going to say that I believe the exemption for religious buildings should be abolished too and they should pay business rates.

There are discounts and exemptions for both people and properties and it is always a good idea to check what is offered to see if you fall into any one of these categories.

Council tax bands are potentially increased on sale if there has been building works done and it has an improvement marker on the VOA (valuation office) website. They assess whether the building works have increased the property into the next band. In the old rates days I believe this increase would happen immediately which prevented some people from investing in their homes as they didn't want to pay more.

Central gov funding is mainly to blame for the shit that councils are in from funding to oversight.

Where do you stop the maths though?

We can't have kids, so why should our general or council taxes go towards paying for education, children's social services, Sure Start, mother and baby-related health care, libraries?

DH goes to sea for months at a time - should I get single occupants discount for that period? What about when I go away for 2 wks without him?

Should I get a discount as an ex copper and now working in another "blue light" qualifying profession? DH should get military discount?

I'm not sure I have the answer to what would be fair. Note that I believe a functioning society has to have non-users of services like education or baby-related healthcare paying into them or else the next generation are fucked.

Agree councils need to make more income from fines and enforcement, and generally be more creative. I’d love to see a parking disc handed out for our local council -free residents parking in the town centre for the first 2hrs, and then charge more for out of area people.

A 25% single person discount is quite fair. Nothing is going to be perfect and it shouldn’t be the job of the council to deal with people whining that they might pay a bit more than they think they should.

Council tax is actually the one I have the least problem with - it’s very clearly linked to stuff you see every day - streets, public transport, libraries and so on.

And Hs2 should be scrapped in favour of massive investment in regional public transport.

In my County, Council Tax Covers rubbish collection, Police, Fire Services and payment to the Local River Authority to manage that too. They also fund the parishes.

I'm Band D which is something like £2100 per year, for a 3 person household.

We use the Library, roads, recycling centre. Our child attends a MAT run school, but many in our area are still in schools maintained by the Council.

We don't access any care services but on the whole, I think we benefit to the amount we pay, if not more. I'd consider we are on a higher than average band and use less services than average and have a small household occupancy number for the band.

I'd hate to think how much I'd end up being billed if the Fire Services charged to attend incidents or the police?! I'd imagine even a call out for one small fire would exceed our annual payment.

As much as it's all a bit of a mess, I can't say I think I'm paying over the odds for the services we receive.

an easy one is that all empty properties or second homes pay 10 times the usual council tax. Letting holiday cottages usually gets a business rates exemption and they shouldn’t so they should pay more as well.
I think the poll tax system would be better then every adult pays although there would have to be a system to charge the empty houses and second home’s significantly more

Business rates could be one solution. Currently councils only keep 50% of the business rates collected in their area, the other half goes to central government. An increased share would reward councils who actively attract new businesses to their area.