Should council tax finally be abolished?

[writingoutloud]

Hi all, firstly sorry for the rant but I'm starting this thread because i came across this article in The Guardian (see below) about how a good number of local councils are going bankrupt, including Woking and Slough.

I mean, I'm just getting so sick of paying council tax myself especially since it's taxed AFTER my income tax, so essentially we are all DOUBLE TAXED.

I understand that bin waste removal, social care and fire department etc need to be paid (and so they should be) but this is not it. It has to change.

I'm just wondering what other people's thoughts are because in all honesty, this cost of living situation and seeing councils just do whatever they want with resident tax payers money seems to be getting out of hand, and who will probably get punished for it all and bail them all out... tax payers 🙄

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/aug/28/at-least-26-english-councils-at-risk-of-bankruptcy-in-next-two-years

The council's going bankrupt, which parties run them? An overhaul is definitely needed - especially with council tax being tied to property valuations from decades ago!

It needs to be addressed because it is a regressive tax that takes no account of a persons ability to pay. In addition the poorest areas seem to pay the most in council tax. My council tax is 10 percent of my take home pay.

I think it definitely needs to be looked at.

I live in a 2 bed flat in the SE, not a luxury / executive apartment or anything, and it’s band D council tax. Most of the 3 bed houses in the town - which I don’t live in because I can’t afford them - seem to be band C (yes, I did appeal - it’s a quirk of this particular housing estate).

I’d like to see band D equal the average property price in the local area and then adjust from there. It seems to make no sense when something is based on largely imaginary prices from the early 90s…

How would we pay for the services? CT is based on person and property. Do u remember what happened when the poll tax was introduced? I do think councils etc should be more accountable. My local council.spent a lot of money on a computer system.thst was not fit for purpose

I thought it was a 25% discount?

Which is about fair because everyone uses the same general stuff. Every building uses about the same. I reckon having two adults in this building uses "about" 25% extra stuff than us being alone.

No system is completely "fair" and "equal".

Some people use more services than others. But any household's need could increase at any moment.

Do we care that we pay more than we use so adult housing can be provided for vulnerable adults, say? Hell no. We can pay more and don't begrudge the required services we don't need. We didn't need a single day of social care for either of my parents but we still pay for social elderly social care, we don't need care for our kids but still contribute towards it. We don't have pets and our kids are past playpark stage. So we do use fuck all in some ways and would be far better off it being a bespoke for all, but that would only mean people in dire need would have to stump up untold sums or just suffer and we don't want that. Seems many on here do.

It all comes down to everyone wanting everything for themselves. Nothing for others. And getting jealous thinking their position is the worse and they should pay less. Just me, just my house pay less, but if I need any services I want the very best, but still not pay for it.

Council tax bands are readjusted when the proper is sold. So if you add an extension say your council tax remains the same, when you sell the buyers will have their council tax readjusted. Again not ideal but the admin going round assessing every building, well you can add another £100 a month on admin right there.

"Lots of councils are skint so aibu to think I shouldn't pay council tax any more?"
How does that logic work op?

Agree the problems stem from central government but it needs an overhaul anyway. As if house values haven't changed since the 90s. And as if single people should be paying twice as much as couples.

No

I would certainly consider getting rid of district and borough councils. We have unitary authorities and there's a lot of overlap with dual sets of Councillors and employees. There's no excuse for councils with no social care responsibility going bankrupt, that's just excessive borrowing and poor administration

The actual house values associated with each banding are irrelevant, it just a means of comparison percentage wise. Obviously central Government grants have been slashed,often most disproportionally as far as Labour authorities are concerned. However councils have been given far more powers to raise revenue through fining bad behaviours such as flytipping, littering, polluting, traffic offences etc , but many simply can't be bothered to enforce laws and go without substantial income therefore

Given that the last time councils were going bankrupt and used it to make people pay huge increases in council tax and then it turned out that they were lying and had millions hidden away.

you will have to forgive me if I take this with a pinch of salt

I’m a parish clerk so my wages are funded through council tax (approx. £60 per household for Band D out of the total council tax). People maybe don’t appreciate what we do with that money but it does things like maintaining parks, play areas, bus stops, bins, verges in addition to running the community centre, supporting local organisations like the food bank and mum and baby group. I also assist residents with highways problems, respond to planning applications, deal with ASB, run library and youth group.

However, the majority of Council Tax goes to Social Care. Councils are therefore encourage to ‘invest’ to try and take money to support their budgets. We have invested our funds in a low risk investment but theoretically they can invest in almost anything.

It's a mess of a system but councils fulfill seriously important social duties without which we'd all be fucked so it needs to be replaced with something better, not just cut.

Tories have underfunded councils, that's why they're going bust.

proof please?

@frozendaisy
I thought it was a 25% discount?

Which is about fair because everyone uses the same general stuff. Every building uses about the same. I reckon having two adults in this building uses "about" 25% extra stuff than us being alone.

I'm intrigued as to how you worked that out. Not necessarily disagreeing, I just cant see how it could be true.

Regardless, we don't charge people more who use more services*, so why should we charge single people more if they use slightly more than half what a couple would use? Being single is not a lifestyle choice. (I know it sometimes gets presented that way, but I've never met anyone who's met the love of their life and chosen to remain single!) Remember single people already have to pay proportionally more for everything else, and still need roughly the same size property as a couple, especially when there are children too.

*We do, however, charge people more council tax if they live in an area where lots of services are needed. So poorer areas with more social spending needs pay more... This isn't right either.

Council tax certainly needs a massive overhaul. There are so many unfairnessess in the amount people have to pay in different circumstances. As a PP said, basing the amounts on wealth as well as income would be a good start. At the moment it's a very blunt tool and utterly unfair.

But the main problem with there not being enough money is to do with funding from central government. It doesn't really make sense to be raising the money locally for local services, when wealth and poverty are so geographically linked. Also I fear that any reform which made things fairer but also tried to raise more money overall would go the same way as poll tax.

"I'm intrigued as to how you worked that out. Not necessarily disagreeing, I just cant see how it could be true."

ok so if intake a library book out the library still needs electric, staff, some books. If me & mr both take a library book out the same electric is required but there will be a bit more admin and book selection required.

So yes for more people to use services there will be more money required but the base amount needed for the service to be there in the first place for anyone, no matter who they do or don't live with, will be the same and the biggest slice of the expenditure cake. So to speak.

Single adults get a good deal when it comes to council tax. You don't get a 25% discount on your gas, electric, water, internet etc.
Also dual adult households where one person is too sick or disabled to work or a carer for their disabled child get no discount despite having higher costs than a single parent or single person.

Yes, it was a shame that the 'poll tax' was hounded out so quickly, instead of being re-thought. I agree with you that every adult paying was the correct way. I wrote to a newspaper about it at the time.
How do they do it in the USA? Sorry, haven't read the whole thread yet. I am commenting on this post on page 1, so you might already be discussing other ways.

I'm inclined to think that the majority of people on this thread are too young to remember the Poll Tax Riots.

Absolutely this. Councils’ income is from three main sources, council tax, government grants and fees and charges for their services. The government has reduced the grants and restricted the amount councils can increase their council tax and charges by while all the time demand for their services keeps rising. Some councils tried a bit of ducking and diving by investing in property and other schemes to bolster their income so they’re not as reliant on the declining traditional income sources, but for some councils that’s been a disaster which is why some now are really in the shit.

Meanwhile the Daily Mail and it’s ilk keep publishing stories about council’s not doing stuff or bleats from people demanding ‘the council’ pay for something or other without ever explaining the reason why they can’t pay for that is because they’re skint, their grants have gone and services they used to rely on from others have also been cut thanks to the government doing its austerity bullshit.

I wonder whether the OP is going to bother coming back to the thread...

Councillors don't get any salary. They get a range of allowances but its not a very large amount. Would you give up so much time to do such difficult work & get constant abuse? Not sure how fewer councillors would help when local authorities are already so overstretched.

Income tax on every adult's income as usual, which goes to central government

plus another tax based on every adult's income, which goes to local government

plus the usual National Insurance contribution based on income, with no-one taken out of NI, just a small nominal amount for the lowest paid who are below a certain thresh-hold, because it's good for any society to have a system of having to pay something in, in return for something back.

Councils have statutory services which they are required to provide under law. Libraries, waste collection and a minimum level of social care are all required, so they can't just 'spend money on whatever they wish'.

It's getting to the point, councils will only be able to provide the statutory services and nothing else.

I pay my council tax, and get bin collections, planning services, access to a tip and library services for £2,000 a year after 25% discount. No-one in my house needs social care.

I'm happy to carrying on paying the local council. I'd rather pay them than Westminster!

How would those things be paid for ?
What I do think should be changed is the single person 25% discount , it should be 50%.