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Lucy Letby - new thread (part 2)

1000 replies

anonymousamy · 26/08/2023 22:32

A thread for anyone who was on the last one and wanted to continue the discussion.

What I cannot wrap my head around is Letby’s seemingly completely normal upbringing. Usually serial killers have displayed some kind of markers by the time they start killing, but AFAIK she literally had none. 100% believe she is guilty BTW - just cannot begin to understand it.

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19
Upset12345 · 29/08/2023 14:35

I feel like nurses and doctors who commit murder are in their own category.

The problem is that people try to compare them with normal serial killers, but they often have completely different backgrounds and can't be compared.

AcesBaseballbat · 29/08/2023 14:35

You're conflating suggestions that LL was abused and the fact she displayed no signs commonly seen in nursing serial killers. They're not the same thing.

No I'm not. At all. I very explicitly said "I'm not suggesting Letby was abused." I DO NOT think she was abused. I'm just saying you're taking absence of proof that something exists as proof that it does not exist. That's a logical fallacy. We know almost nothing about her upbringing, family life or mental health history one way or the other.

She obviously did display multiple signs commonly seen in nursing serial killers. From your own list:
Excessive deaths on shift.
Inability to form intimate relationships.
History of complaints from colleagues.
History of making colleagues feel uncomfortable.

You said you have a history of severe mental illness that even if not diagnosed till your 30s, do you think someone that knew you well could at least say something about it?
Definitely not, the only people who would have been in a position to do that would have been my parents, who both very successfully managed to hide mental illnesses and a chaotic abusive home from the world.

There were no signs of your awful childhood that were ever observed by anyone else till you became psychotic in your 30s?
No, absolutely none.

No objective evidence in your life?
Nope, none at all.

No problems forming or maintaining relationships?
I've never had a proper romantic relationship but neither has Letby, what's your point?

Not one family member, friend, colleague or boyfriend in your first 30 years of life who wouldn't say "she seemed completely normal". Not one?
Nope, not a single person, except my parents, who obviously covered up the abuse and subsequent behaviour, just like how Letby's parents tried to cover up for her. I've never had a boyfriend, just like Letby has never had a boyfriend.

no drug or alcohol abuse?
No, never touched alcohol or drugs.

No self-harm or eating disorder?
Yes, both, but no one except me and people I've told knows about that, there's definitely no "written record" or "evidence" of either of those things. I never self-harmed anywhere visible, I don't have any scars, and was never visibly skinny. Never saw a doctor or told anyone until many years later. No one else ever suspected. There's no way anyone but me could possibly know, unless I chose to tell them.

Never anxious or depressed?
Every person on earth has been anxious at some point, that's just human nature. Obviously I've struggled terribly with depression for years, but I never sought help until recently, so I'm the only person in the world who knows that. (Again, other than people I've told, which was not till many years later.) There isn't a single other person alive who knows and definitely no medical evidence and nothing written down until recently.

You keep claiming Letby must have this perfectly happy mentally completely normal history just because a) she's never sought out formal psychiatric help and b) because loved ones aren't coming forward to say she was mentally troubled. But psychopaths avoid doctors because they don't think there's anything wrong with her, her parents clearly think the sun shines out of her arse, and she's never had a boyfriend. So who exactly is supposed to be coming forward?? Plenty of colleagues had concerns or problems with her.

You can't claim that something doesn't exist just because there's nothing written down, when you're talking about something very private that a lot of people keep secret because of stigma and family pressure.

In that case you also are unusual.

No, I'm not. Almost all my close friends have privately admitted to me that they secretly struggle with depression, or that they once had an eating disorder or self-harm phase that not a soul knows about. The only reason people tell me is because I'm very very open about this and do a lot of work as a campaigner for mental illness awareness.

There's a huge issue of mental instability and abuse in middle class homes going ignored and kept secret.

My oldest friend is a doctor (research, not medical) and fairly successful, privately educated, Oxbridge, very wealthy upper middle class family. For years she's been convinced she has OCD and autism but won't seek diagnosis because her parents wouldn't cope with that. During Covid she developed this belief that the authorities are watching everything she does and reading and listening to all her texts, emails, phone calls, and everything she types into her laptop. She's functional, and no one except me as any idea that she's basically in a permanent state of some kind of psychosis. She's walked around every day for the past three years in a state of extreme fear because "They" won't stop watching her every movement, her colleagues and other friends have noticed that she's on edge but they just think she's really stressed from work.

I also started a thread here on MN (under a name change) about a different friend who I believe has undiagnosed schizophrenia but because she's very wealthy and an artist people just think she's glamorous and eccentric. She's never seen a mental health professional, never been arrested, never had social services involvement. I'm pretty sure I'm the only person who's worried about her.

Both my friends are lovely and would never hurt anyone, but if either of them ever did snap I'm 100000% sure the media and people online would make a huge deal of it being so shocking that these lovely middle class white girls from lovely supportive families with no history of mental illness could possibly do this.

dessyh · 29/08/2023 14:37

LoisWilkersonslastnerve · 29/08/2023 09:11

@978q why do you think she lied about the blood around baby E's mouth? How did she know a baby was pale when the other nurse couldn't see as it was dark? Why did she draft a sympathy card for three babies when one was still alive? Why do think she remembered some things clearly that could help her but forgot things that would hinder her? Why did she tell police she didn't know much about the consequences of air embolism when she did a course about it?

Exactly this☝️

Along with removing breathing tubes from at least one baby, as per her own photo. Babies dying on significant dates and her online searches for the parents on significant dates. And lying on oath about not knowing what going commando meant (come on). And the fact that even she admits someone - who could it be - was trying to kill the babies with insulin. Among just a few things.

With this case the crimes are unthinkable and numerous and yet the only real 'faces' for the public are Letby - a young, smiley middle class medic - and her disbelieving parents. It seems there are some people whose understandable desire for her to not be guilty is leading to facts being taken as almost a personal offence. For some, possibly of a similar demographic to Letby's parents, that one of the most horrific murderers imaginable is a young middle class British white woman - a university educated medical professional - it's too much of a headfuck. Especially on the back of brexit, covid, Johnson, police failures etc - another threat to the trustworthiness of what should be the most stable infrastructures in society.

Tomoinson123 · 29/08/2023 14:40

AcesBaseballbat · 29/08/2023 13:32

By all accounts she'd never dated or had a romantic relationship (which is pretty unusual), so that's "difficulty forming relationships" right there.

Her colleagues complained about her for years because they believed she was dangerous and violent, are you suggesting they weren't at all anxious about working with someone they believed was a killer? Even before that, there were colleagues who disliked her and found her presence upsetting, due to her controlling nature and the fact she would police and tell people off for very minor things. So we can definitely tick off "made colleagues feel anxious."

No history of mental instability - there's literally no way to know whether she had any history of mental instability or not. Just impossible to know.

No signs of personality disorder or depression - there are signs that she had a personality disorder and/or depression, the notes alone clearly show that.

No history of complaints against her or disciplinaries.
There were complaints about her for years!! Her colleagues were even forced to write letters apologising for making complaints about her!

So just the fact she wasn't a drug user, but clearly people who kill to fund their drug addiction (or who kill for money generally) are a completely different psychological profile than people who kill because they are psychopaths or evil.

Nope.

Difficulty making and maintaining relationships means ALL relationships..Some people are asexual or nor interested in romantic or sexual relationships. LL had numerous friends at work and outside, some of which were friends from her school days. Including ones who have gone on TV to say they do not believe she is guilty.

Completely false to claim there'd been complaints about her for years. There were no complaints against her throughout her student nurse days and on into her career. None. You're mistaking 'complaints' with some Consultants were concerned about the elevated death rates on the unit and had a hunch it could be something to do with her. One of the Consultants even said that when thinking about the staff on the unit present on shift he thought "Not Lucy, it can't be nice Lucy".

Everything in her nursing history and every colleague said she was an excellent nurse. Extremely competent, dillingent, hard-working and flexible. She reported her own mistakes and the mistakes of others even if that could have caused her social problems on the wards. So yeah she might have made colleagues anxious because they knew she wouldn't gloss over their fuck-ups.

That's almost entirely why the hospital execs didn't act appropriately on the Consultants suspicions. There was no evidence at that time other than elevated mortality which had been reviewed externally and the Consultants had a hunch. But all they were able to say was 'she's the common denominator' and not, well Lucy is clearly a shit nurse based on all these concerns we have about her and her practice.

There were none.

The 'notes' were clearly explained in court. She was at the time she wrote them, aware that at best, some colleagues felt she was inadvertently doing something in her practice that could have caused infant deaths and at worst, she was deliberately doing something to cause harm.

They're only significant if you zero on in the most potentially damning sentences like "I am evil" " I killed them on purpose because I'm not good enough to look after them", which the prosecution did. They didn't highlight the other parts where she said "innocent" "I haven't done anything wrong" "I don’t know if I killed them, maybe I did, maybe it's all down to me". 'Help me' etc etc.

Along with names of colleagues, dates, places and random words like 'malnutrition' and 'assessment' which she wrote dozens of times. Which suggest to me, a depressed/disturbed mind which she was understandably in at the time. But there's no history of her having mental health problems before being accused even implicitly of causing infant deaths.

Taken as a whole they look like the confused ramblings of someone drunk, mentally unwell at that time or someone under extreme stress.

Same with the handover notes or scribblings found that she'd taken home. It's only significant when you say, as the prosecution did, that these were 'trophies' documenting her crimes. Except only a few out of 300 referred to shifts she'd been on where there was a significant incident. The overwhelming majority were about shifts where nothing happened.

AcesBaseballbat · 29/08/2023 14:48

Okay well in the real world most people would consider someone who's never had a relationship, had many complaints from colleagues over the years (including colleagues who had no suspicions about her, just found her to be hostile and judgemental and disliked how she'd police and tell others off for minor errors), history of people finding her weird, overprotective parents who inappropriately attended meetings and even pretended to be guilty and begged police to be arrested instead, writing many unhinged ranting notes rambling incoherently about being evil and killing people, and clearly in huge emotional distress.

Most people would consider that a very disturbing pattern of behaviour.

But you clearly have an agenda to push this conspiracy theory and will invent or twist anything to make Letby seem perfect.

WhiteFire · 29/08/2023 14:52

978q · 27/08/2023 23:23

"Cause of death is going to be part of proving that. A post-mortem report isn't going to act as a substitute for this: the court must reach its own decision. So the report itself is irrelevant"

The PM's are widely reported as concluding the baby deaths as being natural causes, sort of negates murder being committed, if true.

We shall know when the PM's are published under FOI.

I don't think I was alone in thinking that you were very much doubting the verdict. Fair enough you haven't explicitly stated one way or another but you have very much implied your doubt.

OneSugar1 · 29/08/2023 14:59

The only thing that 978q has convinced me of is that ‘have a lovely/good/nice day’ = ‘so fuck off’.

978q · 29/08/2023 15:30

"I don't think I was alone in thinking that you were very much doubting the verdict. Fair enough you haven't explicitly stated one way or another but you have very much implied your doubt"

Doubt is good, certainty is dangerous, when peoples life's and futures are at stake, as previously the conduct of the trial didn't appear all it could be, as for Ben Myers, only a fool would doubt his abilities, which in itself raises more questions than answers, if his hands were tied, I can see only two people who could do so, I discount LL, as I do not believe she has the ability to instruct a KC.
If his hands were indeed tied,two people are prime suspects in my book, in no particular order, the instructing solicitor or the Judge, we know the Judge cut him off at the knees regards evans, that's about it, we have no idea what the solicitor instructed, apart from the plumber.

978q · 29/08/2023 15:44

OneSugar1 · 29/08/2023 14:59

The only thing that 978q has convinced me of is that ‘have a lovely/good/nice day’ = ‘so fuck off’.

😂😇

Janieforever · 29/08/2023 15:47

978q · 29/08/2023 15:30

"I don't think I was alone in thinking that you were very much doubting the verdict. Fair enough you haven't explicitly stated one way or another but you have very much implied your doubt"

Doubt is good, certainty is dangerous, when peoples life's and futures are at stake, as previously the conduct of the trial didn't appear all it could be, as for Ben Myers, only a fool would doubt his abilities, which in itself raises more questions than answers, if his hands were tied, I can see only two people who could do so, I discount LL, as I do not believe she has the ability to instruct a KC.
If his hands were indeed tied,two people are prime suspects in my book, in no particular order, the instructing solicitor or the Judge, we know the Judge cut him off at the knees regards evans, that's about it, we have no idea what the solicitor instructed, apart from the plumber.

The jury require to be certain to the extent of beyond all reasonable doubt. They sat through ten months of evidence. Forgive us for trusting them more than you.

itsgettingweird · 29/08/2023 16:02

MikeRafone · 29/08/2023 12:18

Yea it does work both ways. That's the point I was illustrating!

sorry I hadn’t read anything there in that post for both ways, it just read to me as being guilty and being found not guilty.

I probably forgot to add "and vice versa". I have a habit of thinking further ahead of my typing and forgetting the punchline BlushGrin

Mustardseed86 · 29/08/2023 16:02

978q · 29/08/2023 15:30

"I don't think I was alone in thinking that you were very much doubting the verdict. Fair enough you haven't explicitly stated one way or another but you have very much implied your doubt"

Doubt is good, certainty is dangerous, when peoples life's and futures are at stake, as previously the conduct of the trial didn't appear all it could be, as for Ben Myers, only a fool would doubt his abilities, which in itself raises more questions than answers, if his hands were tied, I can see only two people who could do so, I discount LL, as I do not believe she has the ability to instruct a KC.
If his hands were indeed tied,two people are prime suspects in my book, in no particular order, the instructing solicitor or the Judge, we know the Judge cut him off at the knees regards evans, that's about it, we have no idea what the solicitor instructed, apart from the plumber.

You don't sound entirely rational tbh.

JanieEyre · 29/08/2023 16:07

Or the fact a highly respected and expensive solicitor couldn't find anyone able to testify to her innocence is because she is not innocent.

Again just for accuracy, the solicitor won't be expensive due to the pathetic rates paid by legal aid. But they are highly respected and certainly would not do anything other than their absolute best, particularly in a high profile case like this.

itsgettingweird · 29/08/2023 16:11

She didn't fit any other of the criteria. No history of mental instability, signs of personality disorder or depression. No history of difficulty forming relationships or relationship instability. Didn't move frequently from hospital to hospital or job to job. Didn't make colleagues feel anxious. No history of excessive workplace sickness. No history of complaints against her or disciplinaries. No history of being found with meds stolen from work, suspicion of stealing meds from work or forging prescriptions. No preference for nightshifts.

She is unusual.

I actually agree that on the surface this all seems absolutely true and she didn't fit the narrative or description of someone who could and was a serial killer.

As Ive listened to evidence disclosed from court case though there were some of those red flags being presented - albeit subtly. Especially the wording or her texts and some reports from parents - even ones who babies so far weren't included in the investigation.

She certainly befriended some families closely and singled them out for special attention and treatment. There was one family she made a hand made Mather's day card for and enclosed a photo of their child. At the time the parents thought it lovely (and that all parents would get one). They questioned about why baby didn't have their breathing tubes in and all said it's because they were being cleaned. They believed it. They thought it was a quick one off photo op. But she presented them with loads of photos after where she removed the babies tubes and said she thought the parents might like them.
When their child had another nurse one evening LL wasn't happy. She stressed this frequently to the nurse who mentioned it to the parents. IIRC the baby had moved rooms and that's why she no longer was his designated nurse.

They have said in hindsight lots of things were quite odd about her but it wasn't noticed when she gave so much attention and when you're in the situation of having a baby in NICU you just take all the help you can get.

Janieforever · 29/08/2023 16:12

JanieEyre · 29/08/2023 16:07

Or the fact a highly respected and expensive solicitor couldn't find anyone able to testify to her innocence is because she is not innocent.

Again just for accuracy, the solicitor won't be expensive due to the pathetic rates paid by legal aid. But they are highly respected and certainly would not do anything other than their absolute best, particularly in a high profile case like this.

actually that’s not correct here. She sold her house to fund it and also got much , much more legal aid than she was entitled to to pay for it, so she had rhe same calibre, if not better of defense as prosecution

in this instance,yes she had very highly paid lawyers.how much they charged for this case is as yet unknown, but she definitely had the best legal brains money can buy

it was done to ensure she had a fair trial.

978q · 29/08/2023 16:13

"You don't sound entirely rational tbh"

Fortunately I won't be losing any sleep over your sentiments.

JanieEyre · 29/08/2023 16:15

978q · 29/08/2023 13:49

"This thread is not about miscarriages of justice"

What is it about, the proper execution of Justice, or perhaps you would rather not question anything about justice, or just this case?

Here is something for you to peruse, about the Sally Clark expert, you may not like it but there you go. Do you know dewi evans put his name to some of meadow's papers?

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1179752/

The thing is that Meadows was a reputable expert in terms of his medical expertise, but made a catastrophic error in terms of interpretation of statistics. He thoroughly deserved to be struck off, but that doesn't mean that everything he did throughout his medical career was wrong or that other doctors were wrong to support him in other areas.

HappiDaze · 29/08/2023 16:16

I think it's pretty much sunk in now that she did it

Now we just want to know why

itsgettingweird · 29/08/2023 16:19

HappiDaze · 29/08/2023 16:16

I think it's pretty much sunk in now that she did it

Now we just want to know why

Personally I'm sure sure even LL knows why.

Some people are just wired differently and don't have neurotypical thought processes.

itsgettingweird · 29/08/2023 16:19

NOT sure she knows why.

MikeRafone · 29/08/2023 16:20

itsgettingweird · 29/08/2023 16:02

I probably forgot to add "and vice versa". I have a habit of thinking further ahead of my typing and forgetting the punchline BlushGrin

Fair enough, I’m after discussion not an argument 👍🏻

Upset12345 · 29/08/2023 16:22

Someone commented on this thread that she might have had mental issues that were under the radar. I think that's so spot on.

I have mental health issues, but I'm a mother, I own my own house and I hold down a demanding job.

I had treatment 14 years ago, but nothing since then.

So on the surface I'm normal, but I definitely have issues (although no issues that make me want to harm other people let alone children).

Quitelikeit · 29/08/2023 16:27

@978q

no I’m not trying to have the last word I was asking you a question which bizarrely you have refused to answer

MikeRafone · 29/08/2023 16:28

Janieforever · 29/08/2023 16:12

actually that’s not correct here. She sold her house to fund it and also got much , much more legal aid than she was entitled to to pay for it, so she had rhe same calibre, if not better of defense as prosecution

in this instance,yes she had very highly paid lawyers.how much they charged for this case is as yet unknown, but she definitely had the best legal brains money can buy

it was done to ensure she had a fair trial.

surely The defensive is just that as you are presumed innocent until the jury returns their verdict.

your barrister is not bringing in witnesses to testify your innocence because you are at this point. They defend you by providing proof you couldn’t have commuted the crime or there was another cause ( thus the plumber in this case)

Quitelikeit · 29/08/2023 16:28

T

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