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So what happens when we're all old and we don't own our homes?

514 replies

user8665410 · 20/08/2023 09:31

Genuine question.

I'm a millennial with no hopes of ever buying a property despite earning a decent income.

There are many in my situation.

What happens when we're all in our 70s, 80s and 90s - which we will be because medical technology keeps letting us live longer - and no longer able to work. Where will we live? Who will support us? Will we just get kicked out of our homes we've been renting for (potentially) decades??

My current rent is £2,585.00, the State won't be supporting that I'm sure.

OP posts:
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Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 09:41

A lot of people who own homes have to downsize or move to a cheaper area once their kids leave home.

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 09:42

Maybe it will be an era of retirement ghettos.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 21/08/2023 10:28

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 09:40

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji I have every sympathy with renters. However the question is about retirement and for most renters their children will have left home before their retirement so the cost of renting could drop right down then enabling people to save for purchasing a property.

I don't view this as ideal in any way but it does mean that high income renters can probably own a home before retiring even if not whilst their children are living at home.

Yes it will drop down with need.
however, in reality as rents rise I expect it to plateau rather than reduce.
so a 1 bed flat will cost the same as the family home now.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 21/08/2023 10:33

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 09:40

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji I have every sympathy with renters. However the question is about retirement and for most renters their children will have left home before their retirement so the cost of renting could drop right down then enabling people to save for purchasing a property.

I don't view this as ideal in any way but it does mean that high income renters can probably own a home before retiring even if not whilst their children are living at home.

As for purchasing a property once the kids have left home.

a) where are my kids going? Into rented? What’s the age of a leaving home now?

b) I’m going to be at least 55 when they do go, so I’ve got 10/20 years to save money to buy somewhere outright to live in for a few years.
which brings me back to my earlier comment of the rise of McCArthy stone. The government might not be dealing with it, but they’ve certainly seen it.

WhisperingHi · 21/08/2023 10:38

I really don't mean this to sound goady or insensitive. But why are you sinking £2.5k a month on rent when you could come out to the home counties (I'm assuming you're in London) and pay £1k less and save that each month, with aims to buy in 5 years?

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 10:46

There will presumably be a time bomb of private renters when it comes to retirement probably leading to a low standard of living for private renters combined with higher tax burden on the working population. Neither of which is desirable, and yet no government has the will to sort out the housing market as a result of too many vested interests. The housing market has been broken for over 20 years in my opinion and is getting worse not better.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 21/08/2023 10:52

It costs around 3-5k to move. Boxes, post redirection, fees. All the rest of it.

the shires have gone up, op would probably make a saving of nearer £750-£500. Add on the extra commute, plus the wrap around child care. Is it worth changing schools etc for that? Plus, give it three / four years. You’ll be priced out and moving again.

VegetablesFightingToReclaimTheAubergieneEmoji · 21/08/2023 10:53

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 10:46

There will presumably be a time bomb of private renters when it comes to retirement probably leading to a low standard of living for private renters combined with higher tax burden on the working population. Neither of which is desirable, and yet no government has the will to sort out the housing market as a result of too many vested interests. The housing market has been broken for over 20 years in my opinion and is getting worse not better.

Completely. Just start with sorting social housing out and it will fix so much.

silentpool · 21/08/2023 10:53

I bought a house at 48. I'm pretty sure my set up will be like the Golden Girls sitcom when I retire - to make ends meet.

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 11:23

For sure we should be building a lot of social housing which should all be made to the highest eco standards.

Tiqtaq · 21/08/2023 11:25

Building more high quality well insulated social housing would save the government a fortune in housing benefit costs to private renters and temporary housing.

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 11:42

I bought in London in 2019 (2 bed flat in zone 3) and my mortgage was never very far away from the equivalent rent. In fact, mortgage is more expensive when you take into account the opportunity cost of tying up capital, depreciation costs.

When i bought mortgage payment was £1020, service charge was £150. The rent at that time was £1400. So i had £200 extra per month which isn't a lot when you take into account i am responsible for all repairs. I had a deposit of 15% too and had saved £90k in 3 years on account of living with parents so its not that I didn't have an ok deposit. This was also cheaper compared to moving outside London where a season ticket is £4000 per year (and rising), so over 10 years would work out to £8000 in total for me and DH per year so £100k minimum over 10 years. A freehold 2 bed house in my area in London would be £200k more for the same size (together with the commuserate interest cost). So far preferable to pay £150 per month in service charge (plus residents own the freehold so more control over costs)

The main benefit was that my mortgage was fixed for 5 years so when the rent for my neighbour increased to £1600, that didn't affect me. Now the rent for my neighbour is increasing to £1800, but I am due to remortgage next July.

The main reason why I bought was to control my payments for 5 years which would allow me time to increase our household income while having a comfortable place to stay in London so we didn't give up (which has since increased from £75k to £120k). But of course all grace periods end and I am on the hook again. It was a high risk strategy of course, cos my capital would be at risk if it hadn't worked out given that one should measure cost of home ownership over the whole term or at least 10 years (not the first 5 years).
I have overpaid and my mortgage balance has gone down by £70k. I expect 6% mortgage rates so that would be £1500. Plus service charge that is £150 so £1650. I am £150 better off every month which would probably go to the repair fund. So its roughly equal with renting

My flat was worth £195k in 2003, according to Bank of England inflation calculator. This is £340k in today's money. in 2023, i think its worth around £400k, maybe £415k. So it has gone up 17% above inflation but not significantly. If I had bought this flat as an investment it would be a pretty crap one but I only bought it for the sake of 5 years of price stability in my 20s (was 27 when I bought). And also because I wanted to.

In fact the previous guy who bought it for 100k and paid 90k to extend the lease and refurbish it, we calculated he didn't make much money from us at all when we bought it from us for £392k (his total cost including lease extension and refurbishment and lost interest from his savings and capital gains tax and transaction costs total to £382k) . No wonder he was furious.

yes I would be mortgage free at retirement but after taking on a lot of responsibility and paying a lot of mortgage interest over the years. If my purpose was to have a mortgage free retirement, i would be better off buying a £100k flat in the Midlands in cash at 27, leaving it empty and renting in London! Not that I would do it. But i think buying is an emotional decision so its not all about the maths and i do love where I live. I suppose its also cultural so doesn't actually need to make sense.

I like this article in the FT on home ownership: https://www.ft.com/content/00bf5968-f518-11e2-b4f8-00144feabdc0

' Please use the sharing tools found via the share button at the top or side of articles. Copying articles to share with others is a breach of FT.comT&Cs and Copyright Policy. Email [email protected] to buy additional rights. Subscribers may share up to 10 or 20 articles per month using the gift article service. More information can be found here.
https://www.ft.com/content/00bf5968-f518-11e2-b4f8-00144feabdc0

Average individuals cannot calculate, let alone reasonably project, the running costs and financial risks of their housing investment as opposed to renting and putting their savings in more stable, liquid assets. But they constantly hear the misleading mantra that renting “is throwing money away” while incurring mortgage debt “builds equity”.

So their savings go into housing, which puts them to little productive purpose as compared to investing in new businesses, infrastructure or research and development – or, for that matter, compared to rental housing that provides the same services but costs less (when individuals are not paying for the option on artificial capital gains that goes with ownership). Overinvesting in bricks and mortar is a losing proposition for the households involved – but also for the economy as a whole. The mass movement of voters’ savings into an inherently risky asset also creates demands on policy makers to provide capital gains on housing that their constituents otherwise would not receive.

As a result, we get a combination of regulatory measures, local stimulus plans, subsidies to property lending and bias towards inflation that promote housing bubbles. And it is housing booms and busts that wreak the most havoc on economies of all bubbles, including through the concomitant destruction of banking systems. This was evident from history even before our current crisis, as my colleague Tomas Hellebrandt and I have shown. But if the disasters in the UK and US were not enough, recent events, including overheated property markets in China and Turkey, further illustrate the point.

This danger alone would be justification enough to having governments lean against housing price swings, as opposed to pursuing policies that promote real estate speculation by individuals. The costs of excessive home ownership, however, go even further. The promotion of such ownership is fundamentally regressive. It perpetuates inherited wealth and subsidies of middle-class children. The accumulation of housing wealth benefits those simply lucky enough to have had grandparents who were homeowners.

Any policies to promote younger people “getting on the property ladder” will disproportionately benefit those fortunate children who have been given savings, have parental co-signers and can show stable prior residency. They come at the cost of spending that money elsewhere, say on housing credits for the poor. They also perpetuate an influential lobby to protect mortgage debt and housing assets from taxes, whether while living in the asset or passing it on to family members. Like all favouritism to the children of the relatively rich, this discourages the development of new talent and competition, and thus is economically harmful. Home ownership also directly discourages economic flexibility. In new research, my colleague David Blanchflower and Andrew Oswald of Warwick university have found that rises in the home-ownership rate in a US state are a precursor to eventual greater rises in unemployment. Home ownership damages employment through three powerful channels: decreasing levels of labour mobility, increasing commuting times and diminishing creation of businesses. Their evidence suggests that the housing market can produce negative “externalities” on the labour market. Of course, in a free society, people who want to own homes and have the means should be able to purchase them, just as they would any other luxury item. But our governments do not need to subsidise that purchase. Increasing home ownership does not increase housing, least of all for the poor. Increasing home ownership in the US and Britain beyond what the free market would generate does, however, distort capital allocation, put a large share of household savings at unnecessary risk, impede mobility, and creates a powerful lobby for government transfers to the wealthy. And it creates housing bubbles to devastating effect.

The cult of home ownership is dangerous and damaging | Financial Times

The US and UK should ditch their obsessions with residential property, writes Adam Posen

https://www.ft.com/content/00bf5968-f518-11e2-b4f8-00144feabdc0

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 11:48

to make previous post clear:

£1020 mortgage (fixed in 2019)+ £150 service charge= £1170 (£200 cheaper than the market rent at that time for the same flat in my development, but easily negligible with repair costs and boiler breaking) never mind opportunity cost of money being tied up. Service charge cheaper than moving further out to buy house due to need for car and commuting costs to London at circa £8000 per annum for both of us.

Regular overpayments of £1000 per month have tied up my capital but has also meant my mortgage balance have fallen by £70k despite being in the first few years of my mortgage.

new mortgage of £1500 (6% mortgage interest rate from July 2024) plus £150 service charge = £1650. New rent for my neighbouring flat is £1800. Now £150 cheaper (again not very significant).

neither renting or buying with a mortgage LTV of above 60% make sense (and if you had that much cash surely you should have better investment potential elsewhere). It only makes sense if its an emotional decision. Private home ownership has made me as poor as renting tbh from a dollars and cents perspective but has enabled me to stay in the city i love to increase my income. Indirect benefit but still a non material benefit.

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 11:49

WhisperingHi · 21/08/2023 10:38

I really don't mean this to sound goady or insensitive. But why are you sinking £2.5k a month on rent when you could come out to the home counties (I'm assuming you're in London) and pay £1k less and save that each month, with aims to buy in 5 years?

commuting costs of £400 per month would erode the difference. plus having a car another £200. She is not buying a house with an extra £500 in savings per month.

Overthebow · 21/08/2023 11:57

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 11:49

commuting costs of £400 per month would erode the difference. plus having a car another £200. She is not buying a house with an extra £500 in savings per month.

An extra £500 in savings per month is £6k a year, and £30k in 5 years. That absolutely would be a house deposit in lots of areas outside London. In my area, which is a commuter area to London, you could easily buy a 2 bed flat or even a house with that deposit. So yes, moving out of London would mean Op could buy a house relatively quickly, even if they have no savings already.

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 12:01

Overthebow · 21/08/2023 11:57

An extra £500 in savings per month is £6k a year, and £30k in 5 years. That absolutely would be a house deposit in lots of areas outside London. In my area, which is a commuter area to London, you could easily buy a 2 bed flat or even a house with that deposit. So yes, moving out of London would mean Op could buy a house relatively quickly, even if they have no savings already.

It would be dependent on what your income is. Also the lending criteria at that time. Also have to contend with higher mortgage rates. I bought at 2% mortgage rate with 15% and that was tight. OP would probably need 20% deposit. Are the flats £150k where you live?

ConsuelaHammock · 21/08/2023 12:05

user8665410 · 20/08/2023 09:31

Genuine question.

I'm a millennial with no hopes of ever buying a property despite earning a decent income.

There are many in my situation.

What happens when we're all in our 70s, 80s and 90s - which we will be because medical technology keeps letting us live longer - and no longer able to work. Where will we live? Who will support us? Will we just get kicked out of our homes we've been renting for (potentially) decades??

My current rent is £2,585.00, the State won't be supporting that I'm sure.

What plans are YOU making to support yourself? How old are you? How old are your children? What’s your income ? If you’re paying 2.5k in rent ( and therefore earring well) then I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to realise that it’s time to start planning for your retirement. Or you you expect the state to pay ?? You need to be pro active.

Overthebow · 21/08/2023 12:35

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 12:01

It would be dependent on what your income is. Also the lending criteria at that time. Also have to contend with higher mortgage rates. I bought at 2% mortgage rate with 15% and that was tight. OP would probably need 20% deposit. Are the flats £150k where you live?

Round my area even with the higher interest rates 10% deposit is still the norm. You can get a 2 bed flat for around £250k or a house for £300k. A £30k deposit would be fine to get on the ladder.

lavender2023 · 21/08/2023 12:47

Overthebow · 21/08/2023 12:35

Round my area even with the higher interest rates 10% deposit is still the norm. You can get a 2 bed flat for around £250k or a house for £300k. A £30k deposit would be fine to get on the ladder.

https://www.ft.com/content/5c49931e-9ddd-3db3-8a67-3fc2bc18f0d2#comments-anchor

Housing ladder doesn't really exist anymore. Its fair enough if you want to buy a flat though, I also bought one cos it was what I could afford at the time (and I wanted to buy at that time)

But I don't plan on trading up significantly for the rest of my life. Am currently contemplating moving to a slightly bigger flat in the same area (which would work better for my lifestyle) but not too much more expensive than what I currently have. Would see the whole thing as a sunk cost to increase my quality of life, it makes no financial sense otherwise. And yes it would have been better off to buy a bigger flat straight on .

Why the housing ladder doesn't exist anymore | Financial Times

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication

https://www.ft.com/content/5c49931e-9ddd-3db3-8a67-3fc2bc18f0d2#comments-anchor

JenniferBooth · 21/08/2023 13:04

@ConsuelaHammock and where will they store all their disability aids

Are people so thick that they cant see why the elderly living in flats wont work.....unless its ground floor

JenniferBooth · 21/08/2023 13:17

I’m sure you’re intelligent enough to realise that it’s time to start planning for your retirement. Or you you expect the state to pay ?? You need to be pro active

And this is wont be caring for elderly relatives Because of attitudes like this.

What about care workers and retail workers. And ......you know the people who delivered your shit to you during the lockdowns. Or do you think they should just go live in your poorhouse when they are done

Swashbuckled · 21/08/2023 13:22

I think the elderly living in flats could work very well. Not all elderly people need large appliances. Flats with lifts would be easier than houses with stairs. (I plan to have a stair lift fitted in my house when I eventually need one.) The elderly in Spain, for example, mostly live in flats if not rural and it is more secure on the higher floors.

I think there’s merit in a pp’s suggestion that university apartments could be used for elderly living. Shared living room and kitchen, all bedrooms already en-suite. One bedroom could be used as a shard mobility scooter store. Surrounded by peers in their block for socialising. And, likely, there’ll be a significant reduction in young people going to university to live at this rate.