Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Disagreement with DH over Jordan Peterson

53 replies

NorfolkSky · 16/08/2023 22:02

Just had a disagreement with DH triggered by this article: Jordan Peterson: Critics complain over 'misleading' book cover quotes https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-66520089

Specifically we argued about the video clip of him speaking here about the patriarchy. Essentially Peterson was saying that it is wrong for society to strive for equality of outcome, and instead we should only want to achieve equality of opportunity. (He cites Norway as an example of a country where women have greater opportunities and says they still choose to work in teaching rather than the corporate world - I'm summarising).

DH thinks he is very measured and is correct in this. I think it's bollocks and in order to dismantle the patriarchy you need to first have at lease 50% of the gatekeepers / decision makers being women. Surely until this happens the patriarchy will remain...?

Who IBU?

(Incidentally the original article is all about the bullshit misleading quotes on JP's book cover...)

OP posts:
vincettenoir · 16/08/2023 23:45

Neither of you ABU.

I disagree with a lot of what Jordan Peterson says. But I don’t dismiss him as a crackpot. I err more towards your POV but if your dp is persuaded by JP I don’t think that’s a red flag that means he’s a total sexist (not that I think that is what you’re suggesting). I just think the whole issue is very complex.

NorfolkSky · 17/08/2023 06:56

Tbh it did strike me as a surprise that he agreed with him and I wondered if it was a red flag - from someone who describes themself as a feminist.

OP posts:
sashagabadon · 17/08/2023 07:14

He says lots of reasonable things imo. I like his advice to teen boys, clean your bedroom , get up early sort of thing.
he’s also correct that left to their own devices women and men choose different careers. He has a thing for men in high his out in the rain and wind fixing infra structure! But he doesn’t give as much credence or applause to women doing childcare, cleaning and caring and these things are just as important to a functioning society.

Backtothe90splease · 17/08/2023 07:15

Equality of access, not outcome is a very mainstream view and in lots of situations is the best way to approach equality. So rather than try to have a certain % of the workforce meet a particular characteristic and engineer recruitment to fit that regardless of quality, my workplace has blind sifting of CVs. No names, ages, sexes, etc. No public schools listed, no dependent children, marital status, religion. We have a fairly diverse workplace but also loads of really good people.

There are some times that the outcome needs a bit of a helping hand - for example active recruitment drive in particular schools, or say a girls only wood tech class or something. To help encourage under representation to be redressed. But it's not the only way.

I think Jordan Peterson is generally a tool, yes. I'd not want to date a super fan. But thinking he is right on this point would be fine with me.

DustyLee123 · 17/08/2023 07:19

I agree with a lot of what JP says.
He’s very clever with his words, and he seems to really want to help males with MH problems. You can just ignore what you don’t like.

Anothernamethesamegame · 17/08/2023 07:19

I don’t think either of you are unreasonable, you both just have a different opinion.

I struggle with J.P. I find I agree with some of what he says, but disagree with other parts. I do think his comments are always interesting though. One thing I do think is that he is a very persuasive and engaging talker, so I imagine a lot of people end up agreeing with him because of his speech/debate skills not just the content of his talks.

pickledandpuzzled · 17/08/2023 07:22

I think Jordan Peterson is halfway there. He certainly isn't a crackpot. I like him. But he mustn't speak for women.

I'd just keep an eye on your husband's tendency to be a know it all, if he's watching too much JP!

For me the big cavernous hole comes when 'women's work' is undervalued.

Care work requires many skills and attitudes and physical strength. It's not less skilled than factory work.
Admin and secretarial work is not less skilled than finance etc.

That's the area to fight, imo. Women's work being undervalued and paid, including in the home.

LylaLee · 17/08/2023 07:22

Ask him to read the book,

" Men who hate women."

Part of the reason incel influencers are so insidious is because a lot of what they say is very reasonable.

If they were raving loonies they could be easily dismissed by the young men they influence.

sashagabadon · 17/08/2023 07:25

Completely agree with undervaluing women’s role. In a supermarket Till work is as hard as unloading the lorries. I would argue harder as it involves dealing with public and being nice all day. It’s not a job anyone can do.
but is seen as the lesser easier role.

tenbob · 17/08/2023 07:26

See if he will listen to the Jordan Peterson episodes of the excellent podcast ‘Maintenance Phase’

Its mostly about his crackpot carnivore diet phase but basically shines a light on his MO of gaslighting, cherry picking stats and how his largely untreated mental illnesses skew his take on things.

It’s very interesting

TooManyAnimals94 · 17/08/2023 07:27

I don't think JP hates women. That's certainly not the impression I've ever got. I think he recognises that a lot of problems in the world and workplace are caused by men who are depressed, under pressure and struggling to find their place in the world. Germaine Greer says this too!
Like most other humans I speak or listen to, I agree with some of the things he says but not all. I respect him for always conducting himself well in debates and appears to be able to actually think for himself.

Caprisunny · 17/08/2023 07:29

You are being unreasonable. I actually, to some degree, agree with it.

Having 50% of decisions makers be female doesn’t guarantee equality. I know many female leaders/decision makers who don’t help women at all.

I would prefer leaders etc to all have a mindset that women should have equal opportunities. It much better for society for all people to have the mindset of equal opportunities. Forcing people to do something because that thing needs more women often doesn’t help.

I think you are over reacting. Your dh has a different opinion on how to achieve equality. You seem think he must agree with you on how to achieve it.

But also you seem to be disagreeing just because JP said it. Really a red flag? The man you married you don’t know well enough to know if there’s red flags or not?

BlooDeBloop · 17/08/2023 07:31

I agree with most comments here. I will only add that JP is like a red rag to some people. I dug deep into him and this reaction a while ago thinking there must be something sinister behind it. Turns out there was no story.

I believe JP genuinely wants to help people including career women. I think his advice is a bit crap and overrated but it's fine, nothing to take offense over. Young men seem to listen (which I find weird as he drones on endlessly) and he gives them good life advice. He takes to task some of the set ideas of our age (positive discrimination for example or women are exactly like men). I see this as no 'bad thing', freedom of speech etc. He doesn't want to chain women up at the sink, quite the opposite.

TLDR your hubby is likely perfectly fine

IOnlycreatedaccountforthispost · 17/08/2023 07:36

I have watched a lot of JP videos; I do acknowledge that I haven’t read any of his books or written articles though. I have never seen him be misogynistic, sexiest or transphobic (all three of which he is regularly accused of being) . I honestly believe most people that hold negative views on him have likely not actually fully watched/read his work but that’s just my opinion. Happy to be corrected but preferably with actual examples rather than generalised, sweeping statements 🤷‍♀️

WandaWonder · 17/08/2023 07:40

I listen to what people say then judge, there seems to be a popular thing these days of hearing people are hated so every time they are seen or heard it is just going I hate them and if you don't agree with me you are wrong and I will have a tantrum till you agree with me'

ArcticSkewer · 17/08/2023 07:48

How can either of you 'be right'?

I certainly disagree with you that having 50% women as decision makers would be a pre requisite. The patriarchy wouldn't exist if that many women already didn't support it. It's a system both men and women support.

As to whether most women would actively choose certain professions, even in an equal world. I think perhaps they would. Why don't you think they would? My reasoning is, as a menopausal woman, that oestrogen fucks us up by making us want to care for people.

But why are those professions paid less?

kelsaycobbles · 17/08/2023 07:57

He is correct that men and women tend to chose different careers even when apparently given equal opportunities but I think he is blind to the society pressure and expectations that affect this

Say girls and boys are given the same opportunities but girls are praised for being caring and boys for being clever ( just listen to people around you to see how common that is ) - that will lead to girls tending towards caring professions and boys tending towards "clever" professions

There are countries where physics is a girls thing because of how the society views physics - which show how it's the insidious things that affect and constrain our choices

AnSolas · 17/08/2023 07:58

I think that JP is excellent in his career choice of making people think.

He appears to have become famous due to his conscientious objection to the Canadian Governments decision to implement gender ideology into law (forced language).

Suggesting that i should be joint first in a sprint with Usain Bolt is a foolish social objective. But when other basic social needs are met having a local running that anyone can train on it a good social objective.

As @pickledandpuzzled points out traditional "womens roles" in soceiy are undervalued and women in the paid workforce only "got there" by benchmarking against a man in the same role. Society needs to work out how the next generations happen and as western birth rates are in rapid decline the current system is not working out too well.

The danger for most guru is taking what they say as a literal gospel of how to live or think.

kelsaycobbles · 17/08/2023 07:58

Equality of outcome should at least mean that women and men get paid broadly the same

Jenala · 17/08/2023 08:02

I agree with equality of opportunity over equality of outcome. That leaves room for there to sometimes be times we'd actively encourage certain groups to explore certain things (eg like a PP said, female only woodworking or something) as these can give the opportunity for that group to do something they might not usually. Having a woodworking group that MUST be 50/50 men and women is an entirely different thing.

Positive discrimination has negative side effects that people often don't discuss. Eg. If you say 50% of leadership positions must be held by women, then a lot of people are going to suspect that at least some of the women in those positions are there due to their sex as opposed to their ability. It undermines the whole enterprise and casts a level of 'suspicion', for want of a better word, over the abilities of ALL the women in those positions.

Far better to think creatively about things that can be done to encourage women who could, but don't, go for leadership positions. For example, a lot of women don't want to throw themselves into their career because they want to be around more for their children. And not just because Patriachy but because Motherhood - plenty of women want to be highly involved in the day to day of their kids lives. But top leadership positions often aren't conducive to this - I've actively avoided promotion at work for this very reason. If there were things in place that meant I could move forward at work (next step would actually be a leadership position for me) without fear of the expectation the role should take over my life, I might do it. I don't know what could be put in place really given the necessary extra work responsibilities a leadership position entails, but that would be far more effective at encouraging women rather than insisting it must be a 50% split with no structural changes to enable it. FYI I think that this is what James Damore was getting at in his infamous memo - what can we change to make tech a more desirable field for women.

Quotas for 50/50 are IMO quite a 'patriarchal' way of dealing with the problem. Inflexible. Assuming that women should just 'act more like men', with no consideration to the average differences between men and women in terms of priorities, does no favours for women.

I don't understand this pretence that all women do more with kids and at home because of horrible men and the Patriachy, that they're all itching to get out there and be CEOs but for society and their annoying children. This simply isn't the case for a lot of women (it is for some of course). We need instead a shift for all roles in society from caregiving to leadership to be valued so men AND women can do what they want without pressure or shame. Quotas just reinforces the believe that caregiving/raising children etc is fundamentally 'less than' corporate and career success. We're always going to need to have both though.

JP also isn't wrong that in the most egalitarian societies, with high support in terms of parental leave, affordable childcare, equal taxation policies etc, the split of how many men and women are in certain roles only deepens, suggesting there must be something else at play. The most 'equal' societies in terms of jobs are often developing countries where everyone has to work backbreaking farm labour/mining etc. Basically places where there is less choice.

Deathraystare · 17/08/2023 08:04

I have more time for him than that awful strident woman 'Pearl' on you tube who seems to hate her own sex. She wants every woman to be an engineer or plumber even though plenty of men aren't. She shrieks over her female guests and won't let them talk and simpers with the men. She even likes Andrew Tate for God's sake!

Jenala · 17/08/2023 08:08

I also don't think he regularly mentions men in dangerous jobs because he is trying to imply that those are 'better' or more meaningful. He is however pointing out that while there may be more men in top leadership positions, there are also more men in the most unhygienic/dirty or most dangerous of jobs - binmen, dump workers, loggers, rig workers, oil drilling, fishing etc. They are left out of the conversation entirely and no one is arguing for quotas for these areas to be 50/50. Men are much more likely to die at work than women. The "Patriarchy bad, men all have it good" narrative is just hopelessly simplistic.

And also doesn't touch at all on class/financial background being arguably one of the biggest predictors of 'success'.

pickledandpuzzled · 17/08/2023 08:09

If we get it right, men and women will become more equally represented in decision making roles.

Men will be more involved in implementing decisions about their DC, women will be more involved in making decisions about national strategies.

Intense careers will allow room for being fully involved in family life, for men and women.

I totally agree with the PP about the messaging to children around 'be kind or be clever'. That needs addressing. We've traveled back in time in that respect. The 70s were far more egalitarian for kids than these days.

It's bizarre.

montecarlo7 · 17/08/2023 08:10

kelsaycobbles · 17/08/2023 07:57

He is correct that men and women tend to chose different careers even when apparently given equal opportunities but I think he is blind to the society pressure and expectations that affect this

Say girls and boys are given the same opportunities but girls are praised for being caring and boys for being clever ( just listen to people around you to see how common that is ) - that will lead to girls tending towards caring professions and boys tending towards "clever" professions

There are countries where physics is a girls thing because of how the society views physics - which show how it's the insidious things that affect and constrain our choices

This.

ElEmEnOhPee · 17/08/2023 09:12

Deathraystare · 17/08/2023 08:04

I have more time for him than that awful strident woman 'Pearl' on you tube who seems to hate her own sex. She wants every woman to be an engineer or plumber even though plenty of men aren't. She shrieks over her female guests and won't let them talk and simpers with the men. She even likes Andrew Tate for God's sake!

Ahh, the lovely Pearl, the Pick Me Girl who ironically never gets picked 🙄I can't stand her, she does seem to be experiencing a downfall now though which is long overdue.