Women in Tech

[MaryQueenofSocks]

As promised, a new women in Tech thread!

This is a space to talk about our industry, celebrate our successes without apology and moan about anything we want to!

We can swap stories, ideas or just shoot the breeze.

Guidelines for this thread:

We are supportive
We encourage each other
We celebrate each other
No judgement on what we earn or what we want to earn/achieve.
If we are working mothers, then no judgement.
If we are child free, no judgement.
Ignore any derailing or goady posts

If anyone wants to add to the above list then feel free.

Come on in, grab a virtual coffee and park yourself on a comfy sofa 😊

It's a big element of structural sexism that people feel any need to be circumspect about career breaks/downshifted periods due to caring responsibilities. Flip side is that it can be harder for men to get any sort of leeway from their employers.

I've just come across this thread, it's very interesting.

I'm a digital director now, having works in various IT and digital streams for over 30 years.

I've worked in private sector (fast paced innovation), policing (big data with poor DQ) and NHS (even bigger data but poor interop and DQ).

I've loved the opportunities digital has given me to do things I enjoy.

I'm finally at a level where I can try to influence some of the things that have frustrated me, but I'm aware that I need the input of others in order to stay fresh with potential innovations

Yes, and there is often less support for men on reintegrating to work following a break for family care. DH took shared parental leave of 5 months with our second DC and although he received good pay, he was punished badly careerwise for it; he was client-facing and of course left all his client projects when he took the leave, and when he returned his company did 0 to get him back onto projects and then punished him for not billing. I (admittedly at a different company) received much better support on returning from leave.

The work of feminism is definitely not yet done.

Was it law @donkra? My relative in law didn’t dare take over 6 weeks with each baby.

My background is healthcare and it’s not unheard of for male partners of women diagnosed with life changing conditions/terminal diagnoses to end the relationship.

No, it was tech consulting. The shared parental leave and pay policy was excellent (huge global juggernaut company) but barely utilised by men, and the company simply had no idea what to do with a man who'd returned after taking time out for parenting. Most large companies do now realise that you can't just leave a woman with no work to do and no support after she returns from parental leave, or give her a shit performance review for it, not if you don't want your eyeballs sued out.

It explains why it’s not used if that’s how he was treated on returning.

My dn has a baby and I think work is easier than caring for babies.

@CyberCritical I am a safety engineer on safety critical systems. Our last cybersecurity team thought that we were the fun police! 😀

This is where the Civil Service culture really "talks the talk" as regards being family friendly.

I know numerous male and female CS colleagues who have fully benefitted from and leveraged the parental / maternity leave policy. When they return the onus is placed on the delivery manager by HR to have held the right amount of KIT days to ensure the employee is kept fully appraised of what is going on, so when they return to work, they can to some extent hit the ground running. They are certainly not marginalised or excluded from activities (that would be a Union conversation if they were!). It would be counter to the HR policy. Performance Review reflects the fact they've been out on M / Pat leave and appropriately made allowances for.

Let's face it any absence will unavoidably affect an employee's career trajectory in the short term, but it shouldn't be noticeably detrimental to advancement due to the negligence of management withdrawing all support. Public sector tend to be a lot better at this than Industry, in the main, and that's because the culture in the big bad world of industry isn't always family friendly and staff training is lacking in what the law states, yet HR don't intervene unless dragged kicking and screaming, and Union membership is less commonplace.

There are easy/difficult jobs. Just as there are easy/difficult babies, and people who prefer one over the other. So comparing doesn't quite make sense.

@daisychain01 I do think there is variance within industry as well. Most companies have an IT function for starters so that's a very large number to tar with the same brush.

I found big consulting companies to be particularly cut-throat. Mainly because they don't actually want to retain good employees. They need a small number but on the whole the business model relies on staffing projects as cheaply as possible, then charging the client lots.

The smaller, more specialist ones are better, mainly because they rely on highly skilled staff. Similar to companies that need good tech staff, but are competing for the same level as 'big tech' and very high paying companies like hedge funds.
Flexible working makes business sense. It enables the retention of highly skilled staff without relying solely on salary increases. Especially in a competitive market people value flexibility and support over money.

My company (financial services) is great at supporting both men and women (although some team leads are still holdouts!), and I know it's the same for lots of my peers. DH has had a career in scale-ups and at any point in time there have always been men on paternity leave (including one of the CEO's actually).

Apart from consulting the other bad ones IME are businesses for which IT is not a particularly important function but the industries are not known for being supportive either. Manufacturing and property developers come to mind, I know people working in these. But it's the same for all their employees.

@daisychain01 I do think there is variance within industry as well. Most companies have an IT function for starters so that's a very large number to tar with the same brush

I probably don't have a high regard for IT functions having worked in global Pharma and FinServ, neither of them exactly covered themselves in glory! It's only since I've been on the Civil service that I've had that stark comparator - CS get my vote every time. However, I know even in the CS, it's a big workforce across multiple Govt departments, so there's bound to be some duffers in there as well as the good ones.

Between these bootcamps digital marketing, data analyst and Web development which has more jobs offers to apply for?
Do you need degree or experience IT to find an entry level as data analyst, digital marketing or Web developer? Thanks

Hi 👋 can I join? I'm just doing a post grad cert in cyber security to make the move from school leadership (not tech or maths based subject area specialist). It's been a learning curve but really interesting!

Reading with interest! I only just found this thread, I lead product management for a large fintech data and analytics company and am part of senior management reporting into c-suite. Love the industry, not loving current role

@Notmytotoro which are you most interested in? Not sure about job numbers but I would say web dev and data analyst likely to be better paid. And yes you can do without a degree but obviously will be harder ideally you'd put together some projects or a portfolio or something rather than just a boot camp.

@Summerisawashout what's up with your current role? It sounds interesting!

Can I ask for some advice from you lovely people? I've been in my role for 14 months or so now. Love the role, and the company is generally great, very flexible and all roound nice people to work with. I passed probation with flying colours, annual review went brilliantly a couple of months ago, and the company handbook says a salary review is conducted annually on the anniversary of joining the company. But no one has mentioned one to me and my salary hasn't changed. Cost of living is making things very tight and tbh any increase in pay would make a difference. But also I'm performing well, delivering what they're asking for, lots of positive feedback and have been asked to take on a mentorship role in the next couple of months as well. So I don't think a raise of some sort is unreasonable.

I need to ask about it, and my manager is very approachable. But I am tying myself in knots trying to word the question. And I know why, it's because I had a previous role where I raised it and was given a pretty poor pay offer, and that was a big factor in my feeling undervalued and eventually leaving that role. So obviously I don't want to have that happen again, and I actually don't want to leave this company, the pay is one factor, but there are many other positives, including the work, the people and the flexibility, which make it an awesome job for me. So I keep veering between 'ask the question' and 'don't rock the boat'. Argh. What to do? And how to ask if I do raise it?

@katmarie there have been a few studies done which show that women are particularly bad at negotiating and discussing salary. Thought to be because we're taught that finances are a crass discussion point. Honestly I have a decent dose of embarrassment every time I broach the subject but I force myself through it ever since my male manager told me I was doing myself a disservice by not asking for more.

In your next 1:1 just raise it as a point, you don't need to be overly formal or assertive, just say that you've seen that an annual pay review should be done and would like to know when that would take place.

Ask them if they've done a recent benchmarking exercise on your role to establish whether the market rate is being paid. You can do some homework on this too by looking for similar roles in the area.

There's a salary guide here too which might be helpful to give you an idea of what you should be targeting or whether you are already being paid a fair rate.

www.roberthalf.co.uk/salary-guide/industry/technology

@katmarie is it possible that your work do salary reviews for everyone at one point during the year and it just wasn't made clear to you, eg do you have an annual review? That's how it is at my work. I would definitely bring it up at next one to one maybe phrasing as "I've been here a year, when is my next salary review".

Thanks both for your advice, I appreciate it! Good point on the salary benchmarking, I will look at that.

The handbook definitely says pay reviews are done on the anniversary of joining, and there is nothing else in our HR policies or my contract to contradict that.

Other than annual reviews we don't really do regular one to ones, my manager's approach is to be quite hands off, but available if we need a chat. Most of the day to day targets and requirements stuff is done through the project management team, but they don't have any say over salary or anything like that. So I think I will have to do some homework and then book in a quick chat. And just get it over with.

Good luck, I missed you had an annual review just a couple of months ago so you should definitely bring it up asap.

Well, wish me luck. I’ve re-written my basic cv so it’s stuffed with action verbs & I’m ready to apply for jobs.

I’ll be adapting it as needed to get through ATS.

🙂

I’d be really grateful for some advice on how to navigate my current situation. I changed career approximately 12 months ago to a non tech role (think BA/ PM/ UCD) via a company’s internal training programme aimed at career changers. Prior to that I was working at management level in a field that gave me lots of transferable skills. When I was recruited I was informed that there’d be multiple points throughout the year for both promotion and pay reviews so I was happy to take the hit on salary thinking it was time limited. I have subsequently found that the reviews are not taking place and now I am stuck on a starter salary that I can’t progress from. We were also hoping to start trying for a baby in the new year and one of the perks of this company is that it has a decent maternity package. I’m at a complete loss as to how I can manage on a salary that’s less than half what I was paid in my previous role though. Any thoughts would be welcome.

@Knittingneedles21 - well, based on what you have said the only way to increase your salary is to change jobs. Even if the pay reviews are reinstated, I'd be surprised if you receive more than a 10% increase.

Taking a 50% drop in salary is difficult for many so I'm not surprised you're struggling. Only realistic way to increase salary is to change jobs. If I understand right you have gone from management in tech to non-management in a support role? This will naturally be lower paid

For maternity packages, there's usually a qualifying time period, eg you have to have worked for the company a year or two before having a baby. So find out what the terms and package is before making a decision. Best of luck!

@Knittingneedles21 have you made proactive steps to get a pay review. In the nicest way possible if you're waiting for someone to come to you and say 'hey time for your annual review, let's see about giving you more money' it's probably not going to happen.

You need to ask for a meeting or just set one up with your manager, explain that you've been in post for xx months, you were advised at hiring that you would have a pay review and your salary would increase, and ask for the timeline on when that will take place. It's not a confrontational discussion, it can all be done in a very professional and friendly manner but you do need to be upfront with your expectations.

If you don't think that will be possible in your current work environment then yes, looking for another job is an option.

I think it's unlikely you'll get a pay rise/promotion. Many companies have cut back over the past year due to the deteriorating economic climate.
Of course the easiest thing to do is ask, and if you get, problem solved. Benchmark your performance against colleagues, point out that you're doing the same work but you get paid less. Get as much feedback from others as possible to support your point (but surely as someone working at 'management level' formerly you should already know how these things work?)

Your other option is to change jobs. If you get a higher offer from elsewhere then that's solid proof you're worth more, if not then you're stuck I'm afraid.

Short-term you need to work out what level of salary is acceptable, long-term you need to take the results of your interviews'/feedback and work out what you need to go to go higher. It may not be you necessarily - the current climate's tough. The roles you stated are the first to go unfortunately in this sort of environment as they're not BAU.

What was your former role? Is it possible to combine that domain knowledge with your current role in order to target niche roles?