Moving back to the UK

[ScottishSauerkraut]

Hoping to ask for opinions / advice / experience on this as right now, I'm completely stuck between two places.
I've name changed as this will likely have lots of identifying details.

I'm from Scotland, DH is German. 2 children (3 years old and 6 months), live in the south of Germany. I've been across there permanently now for the last 7 years and I love lots about it. Never thought I'd contemplate moving back to the UK but here I am, one week into a 4 week stay visiting my family and wanting to move back. Why? Some reasons...

• I miss the people. How friendly everyone is over here. Chatting to you at the shop, helping on the flight when my toddler threw up, generally friendliness.
• I miss the weather. I don't like the heat. I love the cold. I'm in my element right now with 16 degrees after coming from 34.
• big one: I miss my family and friends, which was never really a big deal as I came back a lot but now with two kids/COVID lockdowns, I'm not back as much and I miss them. I'm realising I'm lonely in Germany (I've never had an issue making friends but at the moment, I'm having so much trouble just meeting people / making friends). My family dote on my boys too and it would be nice for them to grow up with family around (my mum, my dad, stepmum, my auntie, my sister and my brother all do their best to be involved as they can long distance and when we visit). It's already been mentally lifting being around them again.
• I have a master's in history and would have a better chance at getting a good job here or use it as an avenue to go somewhere else - journalism or law. (history degrees are basically useless in Germany).

Why not?

• German lifestyle - we live not far from the Alps and it's such a lovely area to go hiking and get outside. I love how outdoorsy Germans are and it rubs off on me. I'm a healthier person in Germany in terms of food / exercise, not as many ready meals / processed food there. It's different in terms of food.
• higher quality of life (e.g. kids have a paediatrician who they see the same day we call them up, you can self refer to specialist doctors and be seen pretty quickly, streets very clean, education fantastic and higher education is free)
• brexit. Getting DH over even with 2 degrees and 7 years experience in his field would be difficult and expensive.

Basically, I love both countries and wish I could mix and match 😅

Has anyone else felt stuck like this? What did you do? How did it turn out?
If you've never found yourself in this position, hypothetically what would you do?

I managed to get German citizenship with the brexit nonsense (I'm a dual citizen now)so I'd always be able to go back.

Thanks all

It’s so hard as your pluses are amazing and obviously things are challenging in the UK at the moment. FWIW I had a friend in the exact same position who moved back from Norway (Norwegian husband) for very similar reasons. Everyone from both countries thought they were mad but she’s 100x happier her, as are her husband and kids although maybe because mum is happier. She felt lonely there and never made those deep friendships that she formed almost instantly even in a new area in the UK. Sounds like your options will stay open so you could always try it and see!

I think that if you’re wanting to move home, do it now before the kids start school.
Lots of people have a desire to move back when they get older, it must be awful to want to come home, yet your children’s lives are there.

German lifestyle - we live not far from the Alps and it's such a lovely area to go hiking and get outside. I love how outdoorsy Germans are and it rubs off on me.

That is also available in Scotland, where you're from. Currently, children educated in Scotland have free tuition at Scottish universities.
Scotland is still a friendly wonderful place for kids to have a very active outdoorsy lifestyle.

Thanks for your replies everyone.

@GotMooMilk that's great it worked out for your friend, and that's exactly how I'm feeling too. No long lasting friendships, no one I can call on if I need help (or just a coffee afternoon etc). I've only just realised how lonely I am now that I'm back here and surrounded by my family. It's been a wake up call. As you say, I know there are a lot of things in the UK that are not so great right now and that's one of the reasons I'm hesitant.

@DustyLee123 I agree. My eldest would start school at 6 or 7 years old so we'd likely look at moving in the next 2/3 years at the latest. 2 years would be ideal then eldest would start p1.

@2bazookas I need to remind myself of this. We'd be based in Edinburgh. I grew up with a not-so outdoorsy family but of course I know it's possible to do it regardless! It would be like getting to know that sie of Scotland which is actually really nice.

Woken up this morning still thinking about it and have realised we will have to have some serious discussions when we're back home. Not an easy choice at all but one thing that's certain is I've realised I'm not really happy at the moment and something definitely needs done about that.

I’d go for relationships and your job too, as long as you dh’s career would be ok too?. Feeling lonely is no great shakes.

Your dc can always maintain the language and go back for free university

I'm not in your position but do understand a little bit - when I revisit my home city here in the UK, which I left 45 years ago, I often come away thinking how friendly and easy life is there, simply because I just 'am', I'm me with no explaining. If you get my drift!

Is your husband amenable to the idea?

could you study in Germany and get a post grad qualification to make you more employable? Scotland is lovely but it does feel like everything is falling apart and cost of living is going through the roof

Wouldn’t your husband then be the lonely one, missing his family?

Could you try a year back in Edinburgh?

I understand where you're coming from. Spent lots of time in Germany during my studies and I really love it but despite the great lifestyle it wouldn't be right for me professionally or for bringing up a family.

While undoubtedly there are many wonderful things in Germany that the UK could look into adopting, I tend to find that German life can be heavily romanticized on mumsnet.

I've lived in both places and understand your dilemma. But I'd do my best to stay in Bavaria. Can you reach out to the expat community? There was always an active community round the international schools who'd happily take in other English language natives too.
Home for the holidays isn't the same as living there, and you understand the long dreich winters, but they are miserable after Alpine winters.
I miss the seasons, the mountains, Christmas markets and public transport of Munich. Brexit Britain has few attractions right now.

To answer the questions about DH:
He's lived abroad in the US for a few years, loves travelling and speaks brilliant English. We've been together 13 years and he loves Scotland. So he would be open to trying. The problem for him is he adores living in Bavaria and is really happy there. And I wonder if as @turkeyboots says he would be miserable with the long dark winters (which I personally love). DH is a bright/Summer Person.
His job is IT, so he can pretty much work anywhere.
Re missing his family, no. He's only got his parents and his brother and he barely sees/talks to his dad and brother, and his mum is the only one who regularly visits (they are in another area of Germany). They're just not a close family. DH always says he prefers Christmases with my family to his and he's very close to my family - chats to my mum / auntie / dad himself, went to a football match with my brother when they visited etc.

@Menopants I have a first degree in history and German, master is in history. There are hardly any options to go further with history master and I'm not sure what else I could study from it.

@turkeyboots I've been trying hard to make friends amongst expats, I made three very good friendships and they all went home to the UK/US. I'm still trying/reaching out with expats and Germans but it only ever amounts to acquaintances. There's a baby group I'm a part of, expats and one German. They are all lovely. But it's weekly meet ups together and nothing more solid than that. Everything you've mentioned are things I love about Germany too. Which is why I feel a bit stuck!

As you don't have school to worry about. could you hire a house for a month or so over Christmas and have an experiment?

But think hard about schooling. My DC started school in England, but it was the final straw for me and made me move home to Ireland. The school was objectively fine, but ultimately it wasn't what I wanted for my DC. The German system is very different to what you grew up with, and the international schools are expensive and different again in their own way.

I'm normally the first to say you'd be mad to go back to to the U.K. (happy expat myself in another EU country). BUT in your case ... Edinburgh has to be one of the best places in the U.K. to live and sounds like it would fit your lifestyle pretty well. Also your DH isn't close to his family, and you both are to yours...

And specifically in Germany, I think it is hard to build a career there because schools are all part time hours in the early years (finishing 1pm!!). I have a friend in Munich who says there's basically still an assumption that there will be a parent at home right up to secondary school

If you can get DH residency (and it sounds like it's possible), I would at least give Edinburgh a try for a couple of years. You can always go back, and if you do, you will go back for the right reasons having tried the alternative.

Sorry, have been away at a family wedding for a few days!

@turkeyboots we are due to come back for 3 weeks at Christmas funnily enough so maybe we can look into our own rental. We usually stay with my mum. I worry a little about German schooling. It's obviously very good but there's a lot of pressure on children to keep grades up in all core subjects. I am educated to masters level in humanities and speak multiple languages but had I been made to take maths and physics, I'm not sure I would've lasted as I'm just rubbish at them.

@lifesnotaspectatorsport thanks so much for your reply! A few years ago, I would've been completely against coming back too and thought it would be mad. It's funny how children/pandemic/no community has just made me do a U-turn.
As for career, yeah I've been thinking loads about what I'm going to do in Germany and I just have no idea. My french friend is married to a German. They have 3 children and she's been at home for 8 years because she can't get a job working around school (she's also educated to master level and speaks 4 languages...).
This is it, if it really isn't for us, we could move back in time for eldest starting high school. That way, we could do a good 5 year attempt here. I know it's really different from just being on holiday but something has changed in me. I could never have imagined coming back a few years and always told everyone I'd be in Germany forever.

We also had an incident with the 3 year old recently and I had to take him to hospital. Baby is still ebf and it was hard with just me and DH. Had we been here, there would have been 7 family members who I could've called on to help. All of them really involved with the kids and would've jumped in the car for us.

I do not think that all Scottish kids get free higher education. Conditions apply

Still feel like I'd like to come back at least for a few years. DH is happy to trial it too though he admits he worries about missing the sun 😅 he loves the idea of being around my family though, he told me over the last few days it's just very nice and uncomplicated with them, plus they help a lot so DH and I were able to actually eat a meal together 😆

With history, I also have different career avenues... Journalism, law, teaching. So yeah, we are going to discuss everything back home and see what a plan for coming back looks like.

Unless it's changed I think the conditions are residency in Scotland for at least 3 years (last time I checked anyway). So my children would be eligible for that if we moved across in the next few years. They're also British citizens through me incase brexit has changed anything with regards to EU citizens.

Forgive me, but I think you sound quite naive about work options. Journalism is dying on its arse, the law is inundated with more law graduates than there are jobs and humanities teaching has the too many probationers, nor enough permanent jobs problem (and you’ll need to do a teaching qualification before you can register to teach in Scotland).

The public sector is the biggest employer in Scotland, and we don’t really have many (any) government policies to support private sector growth. The best paid jobs in IT in edinburgh are in London!

I’m not saying you shouldn’t move back, but you need to think really carefully about jobs and employment for you both.

In the course of that introspection, you might find there are things you’d be interested in doing work wise that might also be applicable in Germany and might tip the scales (and give you that sense of belonging and self that the expat community doesn’t sound like it’s providing).

@Moomindroll it does sound like that from my post but at the moment I'm just musing about roads that I could take. Tbh I don't think law is one I'd want to take anyway. I suppose my point was more I can do more with my degree here than in Germany (although I'm trying to think about what I could do there too). But one of the aspects we'll be looking into properly in our discussion is work. I know it's not easy to walk into a profession, and I want to make sure we're not making a mistake leaving dh's good job in Munich for dead ends here. It's a big risk and one reason I'm hesitant to make the move.

You’re so right - it is a risk - it took me a year to get something after we moved back - I can’t pass public sector interviews and ended up having to change sectors entirely (because I hadn’t done my homework) - hence my work based paranoia.

Good luck with it, whichever way you decide!

Correct!

Scottish Government CAPS all university funded places and any who don't get this either has to fund their place themselves or go to study in England, Wales or Northern Ireland.

Thousands of Scottish based students do NOT get funding every year. The obvious reason for capped uni funded places is because there isn't anywhere near enough money for the SG to fund more. So, the capped and limited places part is usually NOT admitted to which makes the funded part a bit of PR the SNP rely on.

It's an important condition to take note of in Scotland.

thank you!
It's not quite a rosy picture as everyone thinks

@biedrona means there's a limited number of places and funding by the SG is, therefore, capped.

"Scottish-domiciled applicants are being refused a university place"

https://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/fp/opinion/4611130/scotland-university-places-capped-chris-deerin-opinion/

The single biggest issue in Scotland that dominates all others to the point of neglection is the constitutional question, i.e., IndyRef2.

Reform Scotland are one of many calling for an end to uni place caps to open uni places more widely to Scottish domiciled applicants. In other words, "free" tuition will have to be scrapped.