Anyone got a Scout or Explorer going to WSJ in South Korea?

[lazylittlelucy]

Just thought I'd start a thread for parents if there are any on here.
My 17yo DD is going as an Explorer and is getting excited now.
Anyone else?

DH is looking through the list of Scout Camps.

He thinks Hawkhurst camp is vulnerable to being sold off because of this. They have two campsites in the lakes and it has value to a leisure company.

He's not happy at all.

He keeps saying who is going to pay for this and how much is it going to impact the entire organisation.

He thinks the kids will be ok now physically but worries about the IST and whether they will get shafted for the costs in the long run. He thinks it's the right decision.

I think there's a sense of shell shock and disbelief at world scouting for allowing this to happen from local leaders we know.

He didn't volunteer for this event because of the cost but plans to do so for future ones, so he's concerned.

It's already the case that he feels like being a leader is expensive - for camps even for stuff like getting food comes out of our pocket before getting expenses back and it's not cheap. You CAN do it the other way and get money upfront but that makes it harder to organise and run a group. He's been part of more well funded troops and ones who have struggled financially. Over the last couple of years one camp we've run has been done jointly with another precisely for this reason - their leaders can't run it as cheaply on their own, can't pay for it upfront and they find it harder to do the logistics (even give tents) without us. We've effectively been bailing them out already.

It's awful. This really really isn't going to help matters.

There's so much to this that parents don't see but leaders will be familiar with in terms of problems.

I feel for parents, but I pretty much guarantee that leaders won't be being told much if anything more.

Yup.

"You don't want to be onsite in two days time facing flooding."

Or arriving back in the UK in a fortnight with a group of visibly thinner kids.

If they're not directly involved, they may not even be aware.

You're clearly seeking out lots of reporting from different sources in addition to having direct contact. It seems to be causing you a great deal of distress.

Other people - even members of scouting - may have seen no news at all or just a single headline or email saying all under control. It's a disappointing change of plans but everyone is safe.

It's entirely plausible that they have no idea you are so distressed and I'm not sure it's reasonable to assume they would know that.

Don't make rash decisions.

@RedToothBrush do you mean Hawkhirst up at Kielder?

Agree it is a vulnerable site, I believe some already had been sold off post covid and it is smaller than it was. The Northern branch of Wintercamp used to be held there and now even if they did revive Wintercamp I don't think they could hold it there. Very sad, my biggest child loved it, middle only went on one just before covid and smallest had looked forward to it for many years and never had the chance.

Agree with comments about finances, it is worrying if IST is having to spend money to be reimbursed. Things do need to change in general. I try to spend a little as possible nectar the length of time it takes to get reimbursed can be crazy. Doing food shopping plus other equipment for camp you can end up with a couple of hundred owed to you. Then you get the treasurer to write a cheque who needs to pin down a second signature and then get it to you and then if your banking app throws a hissy fit you need to find an open branch on a day you are not a work to pay it in.

I know some units may be more modern with banking but that's what is normal for us.

I just hope that the young people out there still have a good time.

I agree with that @swanling

@missingthewinchesterboys - do you mean you feel that all Leaders in the District / County should be getting constant updates, or do you mean, on a personal level, as a Mum you don't think you are getting support from your friends ? I wasn't quite sure what you meant in that post.

Yes. That's the one.

It's a real worry.

@RedToothBrush 's post at 12.12 about the 'blame' is the impression I've got as well.
We've been in regular contact with someone who volunteered via the National Team who was concerned when he first visited the Country about 2 months ago. Since arriving on site a few days before the first Units, it said it has been a constant battle to actually get anything done to mitigate the issues that were apparent at that time. Unlike the usual Scout way of "this is where we are, how can we resolve this issue, practically and quickly" everything has had to go up and down these hierarchical structures that take hours upon hours rather than decisions being able to be made there and then, 'in the moment'. Meanwhile, people are stood out in 37 degree heat without enough shade, water and food.
I am so impressed at the work that has gone on by the UK Scouts to get every UK Scout into a hotel in such a short space of time - from the Trustees agreeing that reserves can be used in the first instance and then the logistics of booking all those rooms and the transport.
Reports back from our Unit are that they are being very well looked after now with their Korean hosts doing everything they can to offer things for them to do.

Oh, and reports from our IST is they are being supported as well as the Units - hotels including food, provided.

I think it's fascinating to see there is clearly massive difference of how various units are being treated differently within the UK contingent at this point depending on where they've ended up being allocated in Seoul. It highlights the emergency nature of the alternative provisions they've put in place. It's total pot luck.

It also highlights why it's so difficult for UK scouting to be giving feedback to parents - not all scouts are getting an equal/similar experience at this stage.

What I'm sure will be apparent is that some units had a better onsite experience and weren't really affected that much by problems whilst others were screwed. And then vice versa when it comes to experiences in Seoul. Or if really unlucky a shit luck of the draw at both (or an amazing experience at both). To a certain extent that's the same at every large event involving thousands of scouts. It quickly goes beyond the control of the individual leaders who are with a particular unit - they are responsible really only for what's in front of them and are at the mercy of those higher up.

Without anyone in overall control, any large event can quickly become a bit of a headless chicken with no one knowing who has responsibility for what.

As a rule, I've found scouts leaders tend to pitch in and sort out problems they see in front of them without needing 'higher ups'. It's not typical of society as a whole which looks for a manager first. So if for example there's a drainage issue, they'd ask around for a shovel to try and sort the problem themselves in the absence of higher leadership. But this has it's limitations - if you can't get on and off site due to lack of transport and there's a language barriers that hits problems quicker.

The fact this has happened with a scouting event really says a lot in its own right. If even people who are 'doers' and were selected for leadership/resilience traits have said there's a problem, then it's a bloody bit problem.

Forbes has an interesting article from the US perspective.

@swanling
What I actual mean is that there has been a distinct lack of interest in general about my DD going to the jamboree from her/our group. Past kids that have gone have had events run for them and all sorts.
I've been a leader there for over 20years I thought at least one might ask how she was doing. I'm sorry if you think that is unreasonable.

What I'd expect is a statement of some kind from the county/district to all Scout groups saying the kids are safe, From a leadership perspective. As a parent the last communication I had was Friday to say they were moving kids that's it.

As for telling me I seem over anxious about this- do you have a child over there?
I know they are safe I'm not anxious about their safety and I don't think I've said I am.

@missingthewinchesterboys I think that's a more than reasonable expectation

I expect a lot in scouting are (rightly) incredibly embarrassed by this. Hence the wish to try and pretend it isn't happening/wasn't that bad

Wow that Forbes article. Quote:

Along with the USA Contingent’s medical director Dr. Jeff Myers, Paulson highlighted the reasons for the USA Contingent’s departure:

· Oppressive heat. While shade is being brought in, it is “too little, too late, and heat is the foundation of what drives other things.”

· Food supply. There have been problems with proper food storage and the number of calories provided to participants. While food supply has improved, it is not enough to alleviate concerns that can result from heat stress and low calorie intake.

· Sanitation. Paulson described “terrible, deplorable conditions,” to include uncleaned toilets, showers with fecal matter, and the risk of health issues that could result. He added, “if this site were in the U.S., it would be declared a health emergency.” Organizers previously announced that cleaning staff were increased from 70 for the entire 40,000-person site to more than 500.

· Youth protection concerns. Insufficient shower facilities were causing youth and adults to share shower facilities, in violation of BSA’s Youth Protection Policy. The BSA emerged from bankruptcy this spring as it paid $2.4 billion to sex abuse survivors.

· Weather. Oppressive heat is not the only weather risk. Bands of a typhoon are expected to hit the site soon, and torrential rain is expected starting Sunday. While ditches have been dug to channel runoff, USA Contingent leadership does not believe the site will be able to handle the rainfall.

· Medical facilities. Host country planners expected 500 patients per day but have seen between 5,000 and 10,000 patients per day. Isolation for participants diagnosed with covid were not initially available, and there were no provisions for testing of influenza. Further, referrals to orthopedic and other necessary specialists are not being made, and the organization has unable to track U.S. citizens who were sent to local hospitals for treatment beyond what the Jamboree medical tent can provide.

AND

It was determined to be too risky to have participants on the site for any period of time, so Scouts will not be bussed in for closing ceremonies or any other activities. While the possibility of an early departure was considered, the logistics of moving almost a thousand U.S. Scouts and leaders from 14 hubs, as dispersed as Germany and Puerto Rico, were determined to be insurmountable, and the departure will remain as scheduled.

Given the litigatious nature of the US, I simply can't believe that they won't sue.

They decided they couldn't allow the US group back onsite even for a short period - that's really telling.

I bet they don't know tbh. All of this is all just filtering through and quite frankly those on the ground have probably been so busy they've not had a moment to themselves. If they have kids as distressed as some reports are being suggested they have to prioritise that. In terms of informing the parents, I fail to see how that helps the situation - the leaders on the ground would then have to deal with distressed adults in the UK as well as their kids. And/or manage the UK leaders who are managing the parents.

Being a leader on camp can be a wake up to fall asleep slog without all this extra shit on top.

I know that the leaders involved in another camp, have pretty much all been the ones involved in the interaction with the parents - other leaders at district/county aren't involved. The group formed is the unit that goes. And it's typical to only have a single point of contact 'back at base'.

Adding more leaders to the pot (who know nothing of the situation) isn't going to help much.

For example, what should DH say to his leader friend who has kids there? It could be viewed as being nosy or intrusive as much as supportive. It might be wanted by some but very much unwanted by others. He can't actually DO anything. There's no way to offer practical support (which is more typical of scouts). He knows that he can't get anymore information. And ultimately they just have to trust the leaders who are with the kids. Cos realistically that's ALL they can do. It's part of the process of parents having to 'let go' of kids as they grow up to a degree.

I genuinely don't know what you want people to say or do. Loads of people are away on holiday this week too which doesn't make it any easier.

As far as DH is concerned he is volunteering and he gets one month off a year, it's not a job - and this isn't his gig and he knows nothing about it nor who you'd contact etc etc. He only vaguely knows who is there from me having shown him photos on social media. He certainly doesn't have a list of parents he could contact.

If it was his gig he'd do everything he could but his priority would be the kids on the ground. And I suspect he'd be getting wound up by the millions of people pestering him from the UK precisely because his priority is the kids.

If there was more of a problem then they'd be getting in touch. In this sense, no news is good news. The situation is being managed. And will stabilise in the next 24hrs. At that point I'd expect more of an update. Even keeping track of who is where is probably a bit of a nightmare for HQ at present.

Also having just FaceTimed my DD it's hard not to be 'distressed' when you can so clearly hear and see how flat and depressed your child is thousands of miles away. She's gone from the most confident and happy she's even been I her life to flat as a pancake.
We're being as upbeat as we can via text and FaceTime but it's fucking awful when she's in pain both mentally and physically and I can't give her a hug.

I think most parents in our situation would be looking around to make sense of all this.

I have the utmost faith in The leaders she went with but it's a hell of a lot for them to deal with.

The trouble is that no one can really do a lot more though. As crap as it sounds.

I get that and I'm using this forum to vent.
I didn't appreciate the insinuation thrown my way that felt like being told to 'calm down love'.

I find the comments about cleaners really interesting. Do you think they're is a cultural element there? I have heard that in Korea people very much tend to clean up after themselves including in public spaces eg restaurants. Do you think they applied their own cultural standards to it and assumed everybody would essentially leave the loo and shower as clean as they found it and so they would only need a few cleaners restocking etc?

@missingthewinchesterboys I'm going to send you unmumsnetty (((((hugs))))) because I get where you are coming from. It's very hard to be a parent with no control and very little information. Best to focus on the fact that they are with their mates and fab leaders who will all be supporting each other, and you are the positive rock solid influencer cheering them on from home.

@OakleyStreetisnotinChelsea quite possibly they were counting on IST to clean.

Recent jamborees I've taken kids to in the uk have had issues with people taking a poo in the showers! It's become an issue.

I can imagine. I wonder whether our cubs and scouts know how to use a toilet at times!

Cleaning is NOT an IST role. Good grief!

If that's the way you've taken it then I can't really win. I kinda expect if you are leader to run through what more could be done in your head that's all. It's really very little. Venting doesn't change that. You know better than most parents what it's like at these things and you know and trust them. Keep trusting.

If the leaders were in touch, I think they'd be merely telling you the same anyway and to calm down. Because there is fuck all else to do. You've the emotional head on - get your scouting logical one on as best you can. Scouting can really give you the hugs you want or need on this one.

Ultimately Scouts UK have taken control away from South Korea and the individual leaders with your unit are the ones you will know and trust most.

Given the wider picture it's a situation of potential massive incident rather than feeling flat and everything about safe guarding is about that. I do think more will come out in time. I think updates will be more forthcoming once things settle down a bit and the unit leaders themselves figure it out cos I doubt they know themselves to pass on info right now.

Unfortunately.

It is still the experience of a lifetime. It might not all be positive by any means which it should be. But I'm sure that long term you daughter will get it and understand despite the disappointment now.

Save your anger for the Korean authorities and World Scouting.

@RedToothBrush please stop with the personal attacks or I will report you. Whilst I appreciate your take on the situation and the links etc, with respect you do not have (as far as I can tell) immediate family caught up in South Korea.

Have some empathy for those of us that do and may be struggling.

i think camping toilets and showers are often a bit eeeew
and they had flooding to contend with.
the problem is probably Chinese whispers and ott reporting.
they are safe now

I have not made a single personal attack!

I'm saying there is fuck all anyone else can do and there is nothing more to do but trust UK scouts have got it.

There are people we know there and DH very much cares about and to insinuate we don't give a shit is no better than throwing insults that I'm making personal attacks.

Parents need to appreciate the time difference and the lack of information anyone is getting.

All accusations that people are making personal attacks will do is encourage them not to bother with doing stuff. Parents have unrealistic expectations - saying this is not personally attacking. It's just being honest.