Are consultants right to strike for more money?

[mids2019]

To a few of my friends an average salary of 128K would seem reasonable renumeration. Although the job is highly skilled with a large degree of responsibility surely you can survive on 128K per.year?

This.

As a country we're in a position where the brightest and hardest working 18 YOs are probably thinking 'what sort of idiot would train to be a doctor' when they can earn more in other careers like law and banking, where they're not going have to work shifts, face distressing situations daily, etc etc.

I am married to a consultant who is appalled by the strike. He earns £124k pa (12 PA's per week and some management responsibility). It is enough, not least because he works 9 to 5 - although this varies massively by specialism.

There are loads of perks to doctoring relative to other professions that never get mentioned in this debate. The pension is jaw-dropping - DH will retire for life on 50% of a (by then) >£130k salary. Part time work/flexibility is a given. And the salary is not half as bad as they would like you to believe - the disingenuous and high-handed way some doctors articulate this is particularly disappointing.

They will never be paid as under private systems for the same reasons that UK healthcare is crap relative to those systems. If you want to increase salaries, scrap the NHS (and not before time). Private money as in the continental systems will make this a reality and also improve care for the majority - I would happily pay more for this, but I think it's immoral that people on NMW pay more tax so DH can have a thumping pay rise that we don't need.

They've already lifted the limit. Although it would have been better to exclude contributions to approved defined benefit schemes rather than a blanket lifting of the limit. After all the big difference is that, due to the way that DB schemes are valued, people are being hit with huge tax bills on money they might never see.

As for public sector pay increases being inflationary, I hardly think stopping the pay of 1 in 6 workers, mostly doing nationally important jobs in teaching, healthcare, emergency services etc falling behind the other 83% is going to drive inflation, especially as a lot of the drivers are unrelated to what people earn (war in Ukraine etc).

Your husband is in the minority. He works then 48 hours per week-12 PAs?
How many hours do you work?
he has been a consultant for many years given his place on pay scale.

How does he suggest dealing with the recruitment and retention crisis with actual 40 hour week consultants paid 88k- when trying to compete in an international market that will offer much more? Ireland offers a starting salary of 215k I think, going up to 257k? Or 275k. It’s in the BMJ every week tempting trainees and consultants from UK to move. Not to mention all the adverts for Australia and UAE.

Does your husband lack to foresight to see that there will be no nhs to treat the public soon? Is he so happy his own life and situation is sewn up neatly that he can’t see the problem that 85% of voting consultants see?

plus bad news- no he won’t get 50% pension.
I suggest he gets an IFA!!

I saw NHS job advertisements for a consultant in a specialism I work in.....£87k. My job is in this specialism but I am significantly less qualified than that consultant would be with a fraction of the student debt, but in the private sector I'm earning £75k.

There's not a chance in hell I'd go to the effort of qualifying further with all the additional time and cost it takes to earn only £12k ( more like £6k after tax/NI and pension) more for significantly more stress and responsibility.

We need to support them and get them the pay they deserve or we're all up the creek without a paddle when we need them. They will emigrate or leave the profession and I wouldn't blame them!

@Lapland123 I work 60 hours a week as a lawyer for just under £100k. I would like to go part-time to spend more time with DC, but it's rarely an option in corporate/commercial law. My pension is worth £11k per year.

Neither DH nor I are particularly bothered about the inevitable demise of the NHS. We've lived in other countries without one and received better care, particularly in the public/private systems. Our experience is in Switzerland but I think the French system is similar. Superior to the NHS in every way and no need for the inevitable pay restrictions that are inherent when you fund professionals out of taxpayers' money.

And I can assure you his pension is 50% because it's the "old" NHS one. I appreciate that they are less generous now, but still markedly better than anything in the private sector. Why are you misrepresenting the facts about your profession's pay and benefits? (It really doesn't present doctors in the most favorable light).

I cannot strike. Because i am a dental consultant not a medical one and BDA doesnt support it. But i suffer the same conditions. My machine is 12 yrs old, my couch is held together with duct tape. There is a leaky ceiling and ive just been told they wont fund another consultant because i am only working an extra 40% over my timetabled hours and the service is performing well. Yes it is, because if we didnt do it the patients would be waiting!
Apparently to qualify for attention and money you need to be failing.

I have a big house and my kids go to private school. Because my parents died. But because of my job I dont deserve a pay rise by MN standards.

I am waiting for my PIL to die and then we are going to canada if we arnt too old by then.

Ah so your husband is in a pension scheme not relevant to new consultants.

That makes your and his thoughts on this just as relevant 🙄

That’s super that you and your husband can get private health care in Switzerland or wherever. It’s not much use to the majority of the public in the Uk.

I am not misrepresenting my profession in any way. You are representing the pay of your husbands colleagues, even though he is obviously older and on a different pension scheme. You state clearly you don’t care about the demise of the NHS so have no interest in recruitment or retaining consultants within it.

Im not sure why you are on this thread when your experience is second hand, irrelevant to the current recruitment crisis and you don’t want a future NHS

Typo- you are MIS representing the pay of your husbands newer colleagues

Why doesn’t BDA do anything???

You seem to have a very strong interest in me not posting. I wonder why that is...

I'm on this thread @Lapland123 because it interests me and obviously a pay rise would benefit me personally. I've told DH that if he gets 35% (which obviously won't happen) I am retiring.

I am not in favour of the strike because integrity - something that is sadly lacking in the medical profession, based on this issue. And also because I am a taxpayer who is expected to contribute towards inflating the pay of some of the highest paid people in society. Most people reading this would be paid more in the USA or wherever - I certainly would. You are comparing apples and oranges. We have a taxpayer funded system that cannot match the inflated pay demands of private doctors billing their arses off and being remunerated accordingly. We have the taxpayer, who incidentally, is on an average salary of about £34k. How much more tax would you like them to pay so that you can inflate your six figures?

I was not aware there was an age limit to the consultants balloted to strike? I am guessing the 85% you mentioned earlier are not all on the new (still amazing btw) pension scheme?

Should I mention DH's £200k private income, or is that just going to make you even more belligerent?

The point is that the majority of the public in the UK would be better served by a European style system, AND it would bring private money that would also allow doctors to fulfil at least some of their dreams of avarice. In the NHS, it's just not going to happen. Nor should it.

Theres only about 43000 primary care dentists in the uk of which 21000 are nhs and i would estimate less than 8000 work in secondary care of which there will be only about 2000 trainees and maybe 4000 consultants? I cannot find any true figures but i think there were 2000 trainees in total 5 years back across all specialties - there are unfilled specialist jobs now as its more lucrative to go private do a course and claim the same knowledge. In short - we are small fry. They dont care.

@Vinvertebrate id be interested to know what speciality your husband is if he is working 9-5 only per week. He is very much in the minority, and possibly not pulling his weight.

My husband is striking and you don’t have to agree, but I resent the lack of integrity allegation. He is a surgeon who is never home to see his children in the evenings and rarely closes his laptop before midnight dealing with all the admin. Just over a year ago got a call to say that his mother had collapsed and he should get to the hospital. He stayed to finish his list because if he hadn’t, 2 cancer patients who had come off chemo to have their operations would be cancelled with no space in the lists to slot them in in the near future. She passed away before he got there. I didn’t agree with his decision personally but that’s not someone who only cares about money. He cares about his patients.

your 9-5 husband probably doesn’t make sacrifices like that if he doesn’t even stay past 5, so can pipe down about others’ “integrity”.

I think most of the public don’t think much of your husband who does so little for his nhs job he has time to earn 200k privately???

you do realise your husband is then very very different to 99.9% of nhs consultants?

unless you are making all this up- there’s a thought!!

the nhs pay scales and the pay erosion are there for all to see. As well as consultants on this and other threads. Not this ‘my husband’ crap

Agree, this ‘integrity’ BS!!

@Freepo which part of "It varies massively by specialism" did you not follow? He's in a medical specialty - a rather outing one, so I'd rather not disclose. He's also in a very well-run hospital which makes a big difference. (A lot of his private work is - ironically - coming from a less well-run part of the NHS).

It really does not matter how much umbrage you take. Consultants will still be paid by the taxpayer because NHS, we cannot turn on the money printers again, they will not be getting a 35% pay rise under the current system.

I'd be delighted with a continental style system that would allow for more pay and better healthcare, but that's not on the table from any party. And that is a very great pity.

@Lapland123 my personal integrity does not allow me to argue for a 35% payrise at the expense of people on NMW when we are already in the top 2% of earners in the country. Yours may be more flexible.

Personally I believe doctors should receive 6 figure salaries and no I'm not a doctor or a medical professional of any kind

I mean there's literally no job that's more important than a doctor. We could have no streets, no electricity, no shops, we could live in an apocalyptic landscape with no law or order, but we still need doctors

I very much doubt the tax increase necessary will be paid by those on NMW. It should be higher rate tax payers

If you read, my complaint is that your allegation of striking = a lack of integrity. And I don’t think that allegation is fair given the ridiculous sacrifices the vast majority of consultants make. Your husbands position is not really relevant as it is so rare.

I have no difficulty at all with his private income by the way, I don’t blame him. But maybe try to be less judgmental of those who are trying to hold the NHS together (which you don’t care about but you must recognise others do) by working significantly harder for far less pay.

Striking at an economic time like this is complex and I agree 35% is never going to happen. But saying you don’t agree “because integrity” is really unfair.

And people like him are a huge part of the problem. Some consultants now had a very sweet deal, much of which has now been eroded and the NHS faces a dire (well, more dire) shortage than we already have if it's not addresses. What's the saying- pulling the ladder up after yourself.

It should be higher rate tax payers

There aren't enough of us and we already pay a large proportion of all income tax. There are some interesting stats on this, I'll have a google.

As NI is proportionate to salary I'm confident that people on NMW will find the small increase substantially cheaper than if healthcare here ceases to be free at point of use. A hybrid model would be good, but even that would leave some services inaccessible to some, like dentistry.