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Is there sympathy for consultants striking?

495 replies

LadyTemperance · 28/06/2023 10:08

Just as the thread title says, do you feel sympathy for the consultant doctors pay demands. I understand their pay has not gone up for many years meaning they have had a cut in real terms. That being said a quick google tells me they start on 88k and have regular pay rises not based on performance.
They are hardly on the bread line are they?

OP posts:
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15
SunnyEgg · 28/06/2023 13:04

BeethovenNinth · 28/06/2023 12:29

When I consider what top accountants and lawyers then yes I have some sympathy

but how many consultants earn a fortune in private practice? For them I have a lot less sympathy

I don’t find the comparison to lawyers and accountants that compelling (a point made this morning on radio)

But I do get the overseas recruitment angle more

I do know a fair few who earn very well with private practice on top, but I am in SE

luckylavender · 28/06/2023 13:06

I suppose they are striking because of pay and conditions. So yes, I do support them.

WineWithAView · 28/06/2023 13:10

FixTheBone · 28/06/2023 12:03

There's multiple issues at play here - some of which we're allowed to strike over, others, we are not - such as the pension taxation situation, or general understaffing, or the 'future of the NHS'... We can only legally strike over contract terms and pay, I have no expectation that we will get offered anything like the ~30% rise for full pay restoration, but the hope will be that we may get offered something else like fixes to the pension taxation, inflationary pay-rises going forward, or some concessions on all of the other things that make working life miserable like reduced secretarial support, loss of offices, car parking, etc etc.

If you think that consultant's pay is commensurate with their skills / responsibility, then you also must think that our pay was 30% too high in 2008.

For context, I take home roughly £1000 / week for 56 hours of clinical work / admin and do maybe 10-12 hours of clinical leadership roles, professional development in my own time. From that I'll need to pay for professional fees, courses, society memberships, GMC etc which is around 10-15% of that £1000 depending on whether or not I go to any of the big annual society meetings and 1.2% of my salary just for car parking.

This week, I've operated on three legs, preventing them from being amputated, I've also operated on 4 ankle fractures and 1 severely injured polytrauma patient. In clinic I will see 60 patients this week, and I have 26 ward inpatients.

In surgical value alone - That's about £100 per patient for life saving / life changing / limb preserving surgery, per patient I've seen and treated it's around £10 per patient, which seems like pretty good value to me... I'm pretty sure the family of the lady who will walk out of hospital next week rather than leaving in a wheelchair thinks it is....

I disagree with the 'you knew what you were getting in to' argument, yes in 2000 I did - and doctors salaries were worth about 30% more in real terms than they are now - In 2006 I easily afforded my first house on one salary, then sadly had to sell it and move halfway across the country in 2009 to take up a training place with an 1500:1 competition ratio, right at the dip in prices - in negative equity and losing £30k in the process, I've lost child benefit, 22% of my predicted pension value with increased contribution rate on top, and the salary is 32% lower in real terms than it would have been - none of that was predictable.

The reality is that I live in a £190k 4 bedroom terrace in a cheap area in the north of the country (although it has a nice garden), have never taken my family on a holiday abroad, never bought a brand new car and have no savings - which is the reality for most doctors of my age (early 40s).

Quite honestly I do believe that we deserve better, the Government argument that doctors and nurses are too important to strike, and patients will be harmed, but simultaneously arguing that they're not worth a payrise is ridiculous - 'Schroedinger's healthcare professional'?.. anyone?

The reality is that doctors will leave - one of my colleagues has just moved to Dubai - he's on around £300k for his first year plus £45k per quarter bonus for meeting targets, and from next year his salary will double, then treble as he gets 1% then 2% commission on all of the work he does, he also gets chauffeured between hospitals. All I want is payrises that keep pace with inflation, free car parking and a bit of professional autonomy.

In answer to the OP, yes, I do support the strikes. And if you read posts like this, how could you not?

FixTheBone, I hope you feel appreciated and I hope the strikes help you all achieve what you want, which is less than you actually deserve... Flowers

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Lucimaya · 28/06/2023 13:12

Hard to have sympathy when consultants I know have houses worth £1.5 million +, second holiday homes and work both NHS but moreso private.

Medstudent12 · 28/06/2023 13:13

I’m a junior doctor, won’t get this 88k salary until I’m in my late 30s at the earliest. That’s for a 50+ hour week. Multiple qualifications, self funded exams, with interest 150k + of student debt with interest. Countless personal sacrifices. Doing a job most of the public would never want to even try.

In the 90s in real terms consultants were on double. Republic of Ireland will pay at least double for a consultant.

They are worth more, all other developed countries think so. They will walk. 88k isn’t not recompense with their expertise and level of responsibility. If they make a mistake it can mean prison.

General public don’t want to pay us what we’re worth? That’s fine. We can work in other countries who value us. Come and do a day as an nhs doctor and you’ll see how broken the system is.

Medstudent12 · 28/06/2023 13:14

@FixTheBone fully support you

MissyB1 · 28/06/2023 13:16

Lucimaya · 28/06/2023 13:12

Hard to have sympathy when consultants I know have houses worth £1.5 million +, second holiday homes and work both NHS but moreso private.

Jeez Dh has clearly been shortchanged then! 15 years as a Consultant and no million quid house, and where’s my holiday home?! I’m going to be having words!

kateclarke · 28/06/2023 13:16

As a nurse, I have a huge amount of respect for our consultants.
They sacrifice their 20s and 30s - the prime time of life, on poor pay and excessive hours.
They literally have lives in their hands every day.
These are our brightest and best and could have earned much more in other fields such as finance.
we need to look after them and keep them in our NHS.

Medstudent12 · 28/06/2023 13:17

@Lucimaya only a small proportion of consultants do any private practice. Most specialties such as geriatrics, icu, emergency medicine etc you can’t do it.

Today’s consultants and junior doctors near consultants are struggling to afford a three bed semi in northern cities. Most are paycheck to paycheck trying to finance childcare and pay for their own exams. Being in your 30s and getting £50k base pay as a registrar and spending a fortune on your own training and paying back post 2012 loans certainly does not buy you the luxurious lifestyle you claim.

GCalltheway · 28/06/2023 13:17

No.

And many of my friends are medics and think it’s disgraceful. Unheard of. They are damaging public confidence irreparably.

Medstudent12 · 28/06/2023 13:17

@kateclarke lovely to have nursing support

Medstudent12 · 28/06/2023 13:19

JaninaDuszejko · 28/06/2023 11:59

I don't have much sympathy with highly educated and highly paid individuals who choose to strike. If they don't like working in the NHS (which I can understand due to the working conditions) they have plenty of options to either emigrate, go private or retrain. If enough leave the government will have to revise their pay and rewards strategy and working conditions to increase the number of HCPs in the NHS. If doctors are choosing to stay in sufficient numbers things won't change.

Plus there's no money and soitshould be concentrated on the weakest in society.

Exactly! Im a doctor (not yet consultant) and we’ll all leave. How do you feel about not having anyone to perform life saving surgery? Or do you want us all to actually emigrate rather than just fixing our pay and conditions?

MissyB1 · 28/06/2023 13:20

@Medstudent12 Dh tells all his juniors to emigrate, you shouldn’t have to but where’s the incentive to climb to consultant level here? It’s just a miserable demoralising slog these days. It’s such a shame.

jamsandwich1 · 28/06/2023 13:20

I don’t understand why on earth anyone would think that just because they’re ‘hardly on the breadline’ then their salary is ok.
These people are highly skilled, they’ve trained for years and have done many post graduate exams. It’s not uncommon for any of them to have done additional degrees such as PhDs. In any other country these people are paid their worth. For instance, in Australia consultants often earn half a million dollars a year. Why are consultants here worth any less? Give your heads a wobble. These are not ‘average’ people.

smooththecat · 28/06/2023 13:21

Having been in education (now left) I fully support them on the basis of working conditions making it impossible to do your best work. Decision making and empathy is affected by very poor working conditions and I’ve experienced this in education where the stakes are lower.

Wildlyboring · 28/06/2023 13:23

Fully support the striking consultants.

Borris · 28/06/2023 13:23

These are the same consultants that had the pension rules changed as once their pension pot reached £1 million it wasn’t worth working ….

Gymginjim · 28/06/2023 13:24

Yes, although I hate strikes generally. But who would want to start a career in medicine now? Far easier ways to earn much more for highly academic people.

GCalltheway · 28/06/2023 13:25

Now it’s beginning to feel like blackmail.

‘We just won’t bother then’ mentality, gun to the head of the public - and it is the pubic purse that is being held to ransom. We are already in so much trouble with the COL. we can afford these huge rises right now. It’s pretty despicable to read some of the posts on here.

No one has even mentioned the inevitable loss of life on here, babies and children left without medical cover that will suffer. Pensioners left in agony. The NHS is already struggling under so much pressure, to further add to the pain and suffering to line your own pockets is unthinkable actually and morally bankrupt.

And maybe it is time we said goodbye to the nhs as we can’t carry on like this. People are literally dying because of it.

SunnyEgg · 28/06/2023 13:26

Borris · 28/06/2023 13:23

These are the same consultants that had the pension rules changed as once their pension pot reached £1 million it wasn’t worth working ….

£1m pension isn’t to be sniffed at but didn’t that change recently?

FullTimeFurore · 28/06/2023 13:26

Yes. They are extremely highly skilled professionals who carry life or death situations. If they don't deserve really high salaries, who does? Footballers? Unless you want to live in a communist country where everyone gets paid the same, that's the way it should be. It's silly to compare it to what others get who aren't the among the brightest sparks in the country and who have spent years and years studying to get to that level. High skills = commensurate salaries or they go off elsewhere. Simple.

Queenofthenight123 · 28/06/2023 13:27

TrishTrix · 28/06/2023 12:34

Very few consultants earn a fortune from private practice. you have to be in the South East in a fairly narrow range of specialties to do so.

Lots of specialties have very little PP opportunity E.g ED

lucrative private practice is a myth used by the right wing press. None of my large circle of friends do very much (anaesthetics) it simply isn’t worth it. Loads started but have given up as it wasn’t worth the effort.

It's not a blanket thing. I work with consultants who make a shit-load of money doing private work in addition to their NHS salaries.

I don't think I know a consultant who didn't formally retire at 55 and then do some part-time lucrative locum work.

Lucimaya · 28/06/2023 13:27

MissyB1 · 28/06/2023 13:16

Jeez Dh has clearly been shortchanged then! 15 years as a Consultant and no million quid house, and where’s my holiday home?! I’m going to be having words!

Much depends on specialty, much scope for private work, and NHS salary £100,000+ and more for additional duties. They are minted. Became consultants mid 30's.

queenofthewild · 28/06/2023 13:28

The consultant couple I know are incredibly wealthy. But I think the bulk of their income comes from their private work.

If the NHS wants to retain the best they need to pay them accordingly. We can't all afford to go private, but we will all need medical care sooner or later.

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