Can I report a church? Who to?

[BlueSquirrelTurnip]

I went to a new church yesterday with my kids and I was very upset by the message.
The whole sermon was based around giving (money) - specifically giving MORE than you can afford.

The church want to fundraise for a brand new building. And the vicar said - “don’t just give what you can afford. That’s not spirituality challenging. You need to give more than that.”

He also said something like: “if you are struggling for money, then you should give money to the church. God will bless you abundantly and you will get more money back.”

Aside from the liturgical arguments with the above (big eyeroll from this lapsed Catholic/sometime Anglican), I’m furious that in a cost of living crisis so much pressure was being put on people to give more money than they can afford . And all just for a church building! (If it had been for food for the hungry, I might have been slightly more understanding)

I want to do something. Can anyone think of what I can do? Is there someone I can complain to about this?

My mother told me her tale of growing up in a strict Irish Catholic family with a visiting paedophile priest and the parish priest who had the brilliant idea of levying his poverty-stricken congregation who had barely enough to eat ten pounds per family to build a new church. It took her over 50 years to tell somebody about the paedophile priest because as she said who would believe the word of a child over the word of a priest. (Can you imagine how many children that priest got away with molesting over the course of his career?) The parish priest when not trying to extract money would carry a stick on his walks and whack any young people he perceived to be having too much fun. My mother was worried sick about how her family was going to pay the money but my grandfather told my mother that there was no way he was going to pay that money to the Church, with a few expletives added. Eventually, the families that couldn't pay - you know having housefuls of children that the Church insisted they have - were allowed to provide labour to build the new church.

My mother emigrated and converted to another faith by the time she was 21 and so far as I know disagreed with every single tenet of the Catholic Church on confession, contraception, abortion, homosexuality and divorce. Vote with your feet and money I say.

If the group is registered as a charity you may be able to complain to the Charity Commission.

Sounds like the church we’ve just left, which was part of the evangelical alliance but independent.

This is in my opinion the big problem with Evangelical Alliance- it doesn’t really mean anything, it’s an incredibly loose grouping, not a denomination like Church of England, Methodist, vineyard, Elim, etc.

As such in Evangelical Alliance you can get a crazy wide range of beliefs. I’m not aware of any accountability so I doubt they’d care about what’s being preached so long as it’s not blatantly illegal.

The church you encountered is obviously heavily influenced by American prosperity teachings/word of Faith movement. Run a mile and don’t look back.

I doubt it’s worth reporting unless you have proof that funds are mismanaged or people are being coerced. Then the charity commission would be the best bet. The church we’ve left got away with so much.

A lot of evangelical churches teach giving as an act of faith. I think it’s a pernicious teaching as it encourages fiscal irresponsibility and it is frankly greedy. There is also an element of judgment in it- rich people who give are rich because they are ‘blessed’. On the flipside, does that mean that those are who are poor are to blame because they aren’t equally blessed? If you think that through the message is pretty horrible. This thread of teaching relies on a few cherry-picked bible verses to develop a doctrine of faith giving which is actually pretty antithetical to other Biblical teachings.

I would run a mile from churches that are teaching this doctrine as I expect there will be other harmful teachings yet to come out.

This is the type of rubbish that is spouted by many evangelical churches: https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/753591

Fucking hell, have you been hiding under a rock? This is not new, it’s been the same message for as long as I can recall with the church we are associated with. Give more than you can afford so you ‘suffer’ and God will reward you. Complete and utter bollocks and if anyone listened and acted on that then fool be them. Theoretically God gave us free will. This is a situation where we are expected to use it (along with plain common sense).

My thread above doesn’t answer the OP’s question about how to complain. I don’t think you can complain. The best you can do is to challenge this teaching and find another place. I speak out as much as I can about evangelical teachings because I have been on the receiving end of a lot of it, but most people in that world will not listen because it encourages a cult-like level of faith where challenge and questioning is discouraged.

Show me a religion that isn't !

They might not be encouraging them to poverty, they might be* encouraging them to sacrificial giving. (it's a thing in many churches) for those who are ready, and have carefully considered it, and the people who give like this usually get more back than they give, on the principle that you can't out give God. It's a faith thing.

Where I agree with you is it needs to be preached carefully with a message that if you are without at the moment come and see the leadership team and you will be supported. (It looks encouraging that they are running a food bank)

There is usually a message about it being for the regular attenders. And it being a gradual process. I've give a bit more than you are now and see how God blesses you. Something done in faith.

There is of course the danger that some places will be emotionally manipulative and ripping people off. It's easy to.prey on people telling them it's what God wants when it's what the leader wants. (* Hence might be in first paragraph.) Sometimes it can be tricky to tell the difference. Sometimes it's bloody obvious. Some of the American prosperity gospel people for instance. Outright emotional blackmail.

I do know a church that raised millions for a new building between them but it was about carefully considering. Many of them could afford it as were well off professional people.

I'm hoping you are mistaken for the sake of the attendees.

Shouldn't be fiscally irresponsible giving as someone else put it. Encouraged to be sensible. If not then it is a worry.

that sounds like buying god's favour.
not much different from the abuse of indulgences etc which the reformers, martin luther etc, objected to.
a bit like fashions, with the passage of time, things come round again.

As a former local journalist many moons ago, I can say that this is exactly the kind of thing that would interest a local journalist.

Events don’t have to be illegal to be newsworthy. In fact, it’s often the stuff that’s perfectly legal, but clearly a bit dodgy that makes a great talking point in a local newspaper/ local radio/ TV programme.

have you seen a ‘very British cult’? That was a BBC investigation. Gripping telly.

it’s a perfect story during the cost of living crisis. All it needs is a local person criticising it.

Alternatively, a local journo could visit the church themselves and report on it ‘ following complains from local people’, so you don’t have to have your face plastered on the paper if you don’t want to.

whereabouts is this happening OP?

I hear what you're saying. But this happens all the time, in churches in every city and large town. It's not unusual. It's a bit like complaining that Catholic Churches don't allow women leaders. They will reply that God blessing sacrificial givers is a part of their faith.

One elephant in the room here is that it happens particularly in churches for particular ethnic groups (you'll be hard pressed to find an African-based Pentecostal church in London that doesn't appeal for funds this way). Critiquing it has to be done carefully, or you open yourself to accusations of racism or colonial attitudes.

How disgraceful.

I think organised religion needs a bit of policing. Well a lot actually.

Not quite the same but on sort of similar lines. Catholic family living in West London. Family all passed away and left the daughter living in a fairly large Victorian house, no living relatives or not dependants. Apparently church were very good to her and she had something like cerebral palsy but still worked part time, I think at a library or supermarket. Accordingly to her neighbours the priest and curate called round a lot…. She did have brothers but they’d either died or couldn’t contest will.

Anyway she died and left everything to the Catholic Church including this house which was worth over £1 million at the time. Her immediate and near neighbours were sending us letters or putting the notes through her door as they wanted to buy the house.

It was left to the local diocese there. We had to deal with their finance priest who was the most grasping and unpleasant man I’ve come across. Was complaining about the state the house was left in (cluttered and riddled with vermin (mice)) yet no one from the church offered to help with that whilst she was alive. You’d think he’d be grateful that the diocese was left a lot of money but no.

Makes me glad that I’m technically an atheist but by birth Christian.

This but I would post it on Facebook and report it to the local food bank

churches and their minions get paid through effectively making the congregation pay for them spouting all sorts from this to the traditional 10% argument. The tithing argument came when we had no support system, no nhs etc I would argue that these take 40% of my income not 10%. I give what I can afford to project I want to

I'm not sure who you would complain to but I feel this may be pretty standard. I attended a church wedding several years ago, not an obscure denomination church either and couldn't believe it when the ceremony was effectively stopped in the middle and a box passed round the congregation for us to donate towards roof repairs! He just stopped the wedding and started going on about the dire straits the church was in and how things like the wedding wouldn't be able to continue if they couldn't fix the roof etc. He didn't resume the ceremony until the box had been passed round everyone and returned to the front!
So sadly your story doesn't surprise me.

Isn't this the general message from most churches? I've been a member of a few over the years (on and off, not CofE or Roman Catholic) and they all put a fair amount of pressure on members for financial contributions.

I've heard of one church where they asked for payslips to make sure you were tithing ten percent of your salary.

They had a list up to shame those who were not tithing.

The Salvation Army Church I belonged to for a while expected 10% and had a list of regular contributors up.

Churches need money to do their work. 95% of income comes from the congregation. There is no other public funding.

Jesus needed money for his ministry.

It's common for churches to have a 'stewardship season', where preaching is about raising money as well as encouraging time and talents.

It's unfortunate if you stumble upon this when you are new, and June is a weird time to have a stewardship season.

I don't think there is anything to complain about without sight of the accounts. You can simply walk away.

Church of England churches are very transparent with their accounts. Incumbents get a fixed stipend (something in the region of £30k plus housing, training and pension). No individual is getting rich.

Churches are also under the authority of the Charities Act.

According to the OP the church said that even people who are struggling would give more than they can afford and they will eventually get the money back. Is that really okay to you?

Leave a google review stating exactly what happened and why, according to scripture if you know it, and according to common decency too, this is wrong and shouldn't happen