Should debating / public speaking be taught in all schools, to all students?

[Chocchops72]

Just been listening to Alistair Campbell talking about his new book and arguing that children in state schools should be learning debating skills and public speaking, as is the case in private schools.

I’m in France, with two teens in the state school system. Public speaking skills are absolutely part of the curriculum here. As soon as they could read, they’ve had to learn multiple poems by heart, and to recite them perfectly in front of the class. over the users they’ve done countless oral presentations in class. Both the main exams (brevet at age 15, baccalaureate age 18) have a separate oral exam as well as the written / continuous assessment components. The Grand Oral, which is part of the baccalaureate, is a major component of their final mark and taken very seriously.

It’s just seen as a perfectly normal part of education here. Putting together an argument or opinion and expressing it verbally. And being able to do it in front of a group. Even my otherwise very very shy youngest just gets on with it without much prodding.

what do you think? would you or your children have benefitted / would benefit from public speaking being part of the curriculum?

It’s a very useful skill particularly in the workplace. Ds is lucky in that he does private speech and drama and public speaking (independent school). He takes part in inter school debates and performing arts festivals. We got him into this mainly because it’s so good for self confidence, but also because it’s bound to help in more or less any future career.

I suspect some state schools are able to offer it but a lot might struggle.

Debating is pretty essential though - most of us are going to end up having to reach decisions with others who might have a different POV.

Debating teaches you to argue without rancour, one of the worst problems with SM is the loss of the ability to do this. It’s essential for a civilised society.

Agree with you on SM

It is, very often.
There's something called Philosophy for children which is very popular, it involves really young children debating on a philosophical level, giving their opinion, using examples, disagreeing in the healthy way, listening to peers and adapting their thinking based on what they hear.
Done well, and it often is, it can be absolutely brilliant for children.

Not sure if schools do much debating but public speaking starts in Nursery/Reception by doing Show and Tell and class assemblies.

They definitely should, I'm always amazed by the older teens and 20 somethings I meet who can't speak coherently when required to do so.

Yes!
The ability to have a rational discussion with someone who has a different viewpoint without being mortally offended is a skill which is now being lost. It also helps to build confidence.
Mine did debating in primary but sadly only a select few were allowed to do it in secondary. The club was guarded closely by the teacher who ran it. 😕

I think so. I was once at a public meeting about an important local issue.

Ordinary people with a lot of knowledge about it came on the stage to speak. It was very noticeable how poorly most of them did so. The sound of their speech did not carry, their words were not clear, their message was lost, even with a microphone.

Among those speaking there were also a local MP and some counsellors who did speak clearly and effectively.

One of the skills often provided by good private education is at least some practise in speaking up about a point or idea, or reciting a speech or poem, or taking part in drama . It would help all children to learn this imo.

One of my happiest school memories is the debating in English lessons. Not only did it encourage confidence in speaking in public, it also taught the importance of structuring a coherent speech and, very importantly, the capacity to listen to different points of view, without shouting down someone whose opinion differs from yours.

There were even times when my viewpoint changed completely, the point of a good debate. Thank you Miss Robinson.

Ds did debating club at school until lockdown. (standard comprehensive). The school's done very well at debating competitions, and often is the only state school there.
I don't know whether that's because state schools don't do debates or don't tend to enter the competitions. It takes someone keen to run it, I guess. The teacher is very good.

Some politicians really like the sound of their own voices, don't they? Some might say the example they set demonstrates a good reason why not to teach everyone how to do it! There's enough loudmouth smart Alecs around already.

Teachers are finding it hard enough to get the kids to learn what is already on the curriculum, let alone adding more to an already crowded timetable. To make room for debate/public speaking lessons, what would have to go?

To make room for debate/public speaking lessons, what would have to go?

A mini version is for the students to take turns in class to make brief points in a class discussion, about whatever the lesson is about, in a clear, definite voice.

Nothing would need to go from the curriculum, it can, and should be, included in all subjects. It can add an extra level of depth to the thought around issues being taught.

Yes, it’s a really useful life skill, and IMO lack of confidence in it is what sometimes holds very well-qualified state school/young graduates back. I’ve see the massive difference speech and drama has made in my own DC.

Absolutely, I mean debate, probably less so, but public speaking, presenting skills, critical thinking and peer feedback are really important skills and not just for children who go into ‘professional’ jobs.

I’m a uni lecturer and a significant proportion of our assessments involve an oral/presentation component. But you don’t need to go to uni for those to be key skills.

In my (private) secondary school, every student had to give a 10 minute speech on a topic of their choice in front of the whole school every year. Even when students were SEN or spoke English as not their first language, there was a lot of support for everyone to do it in some way and I think that was great. I can’t say we really looked forward to it, but I’m a confident public speaker, so it didn’t hurt.

Yes, I remember doing oral presentations as part of GCSE English.

Ds took Modern Studies in secondary school S1-S3 (Scotland) and loved it because they would have class discussions where half the class were on either side of a topic such as gun laws in US etc

He choose it for NAT5 in S4 and hated it as it changed to being just taking/copying pages and pages of notes and memorising them rather than exploring and discussing interesting topics. He quickly dropped it after NAT5.

There are so many more useful, soft skills pupils could learn in exam years of it was not so focussed on just exams.

The ability to have a rational discussion with someone who has a different viewpoint without being mortally offended is a skill which is now being lost.

Certainly by a lot who post on MN, anyway . It strikes me time and time again on all sorts of threads.

To make room for debate/public speaking lessons, what would have to go?

Nothing. These are soft skills taught across the curriculum - as someone else said, from Nursery onwards. EY Practitioners support tiny dc to speak out and to wait until the other person has said their piece, etc...... 'show and tell' type activities happen throughout KS1.... lots is done on 'persuasive writing' (and of course that is all to do with forming an argument in your mind first) in KS2 .... and so it goes on throughout KS3 and 4 particularly - but not exclusively - in English, History, Drama, Citizenship, PSHE, and particularly RE (which has a strong emphasis on philosophy and ethics).

Yes to public speaking and debating being taught. It is something I wish I was more confident at and wasn't taught at my state schools. I know it's not a subject but it's an incredibly useful skill in adult life.

My youngest hates public speaking and is very, very anxious about it. My other child could argue black was white with a room full of adults and convince them!

Some schools put a greater emphasis on oracy than others - I think it's actually more important now than ever, as now there are multiple cohorts who aren't able to sing/project/be confident in the sound of their voices after not being allowed to as part of Covid fears. There are still churches where singing is not allowed in services and pre-recorded music is played instead.

For balance, a significant number did develop a clearer normal toned voice due to needing to be understood whilst wearing masks, but there has been frequently, particularly for girls, a culture of shut up, don't stand out, don't draw attention to yourself as the boys will rip the piss out of you, which, combined with isolation during Covid where many could be spending hours and days not speaking to anybody outside a shattered NHS worker parent or one busy wfh and demanding absolute silence, speaking up is something they already had limited experience in and it's been quashed further.

Reading aloud isn't the key, as that's agonising for many (to listen to, as well as to do when reading isn't that fluent in the first place) - it's being able to speak first. And the National Curriculum puts so much emphasis on ticking off skills that are silent, there's not a lot of time left to learn confidence, especially when little ones enter education unable to toilet, to eat, sit up or understand instructions.

If anyone in rural areas have children who want to try their hand at public speaking or would just benefit from confidence building with that kind of thing then young farmers is a great place to start.

They do everything from fun public speaking completions like 'just a minute' at club and county levels, to more serious competitions such as debating and after dinner speaking up to national levels.

You can compete at national levels really quite easily if you put a little effort in as a team.

There's also loads of opportunities to be in things like panto, drama etc and loads of less formal opportunities like thanking speakers or events organisers that have come to the club or reporting back to the club in meetings about how the club did in a competition etc.

Absolutely. Students should be given topics and told which side to argue from, rather than having to do so from their preferred viewpoint.
This could be in written form in discursive essays as well rather than forcing people to speak in public
It would be a way of teaching 'critical thinking' which currently seems to be sorely lacking in these 'cancel culture' years.
In the 1970s a discursive essay in English needed you to put the case for a proposition, the case against a proposition and then you would state which side you tended towards and why.

This encourages free speech and demonstrates that there is a range of different valid viewpoints on any topic and not just one single Group Think option.

Yes but not for the speaking skills, more for the ability to consider sides of an argument that you don’t yourself agree with, and to understand that the argument that wins out in public is not necessarily the best one.

My 17 yo dd is a keen debater (national finals day) and I credit that with the fact that we can have calm, reasoned and thoughtful discussions about gender, ending with us both changing our positions slightly, despite our starting points being very different.

It's very useful as an exercise, but too much of the "presenting it from a side assigned at random" only drives students to believe that (a) all viewpoints are equally acceptable, and consequently (b) good arguments can and must be found to defend the indefensible.

I am lucky enough to teach Philosophy A-level, and students are very much expected to use the approach you've described. They have to argue for a position rather than sitting on the fence, but get marked down if they use a straw-man version of their opponent's arguments. Teenagers initially find that very hard (and very different to what they've done at GCSE).

Does anybody remember balloon debates?
They may not be pc now but you had 5 famous people in a balloon (could be tailored to most subjects) but the balloon was going to crash unless you threw one person out.
The five people had to argue their case as to why they should be allowed to stay in.
I bloody loved them!