Why are we on a steady downward decline

[Neverknowno]

What is the root cause of the UK’s downward slide? What is behind the low productivity?

Is it because we do not tax high earners enough to fund public services? Or are our taxes too high?

Is it because of the increasing number of the workforce going permanently off ill?

Tell that to the vast majority of countries in the world who have an insurance system. Life isn’t fair, essentially

😂. Just who is going to vote that in?

We should be aiming for a more compassionate fairer society not one that isn’t ‘fair.’ You’re alright Jack.

I doubt that’s what’s behind the decline.

I think our mindset plays a huge part. Our resilience is low, we complain a lot, want a lot but give little, and blame everyone else for our problems, including blaming immigrants.

We think Britain can continue to thrive on past glory. Our mindset means we no longer have the bloody mindedness that’s need to take the nation forward.

Echoing the PP who mentioned that Marx predicted this a long time ago. I would say, with respect not just to Britain but the western world generally, especially the US: "It was capitalism all along". A slow burn, but the outcome is pretty much here and was totally predicable.

Capitalism in itself doesn't help as every beneficial invention that would make living standards better and cheaper would cut into business and shareholder profits. I remember that shares were sold with the proviso that the value may go up or down. This country always seems to be bailing out shareholders - why? Nationalisation of infrastructure couldn't make it worse run than it currently is, surely?

The USA is the wealthiest country in the world, compare that to North Korea, all you socialists.

basically, the UK is run for business and profit, not its citizens. Boils down to that. Shareholder value is king. We all drink the cool aid and on we go

Isn't a large chunk of the US economy built on consumerism, and many people are in debt. Not something I'd aspire to.

You don't want to be poor in the States though (obviously wouldn't want to live in North Korea for anything)

I don’t see it that way - decline is not how I see it. The country, in fact all of the west (Europe being the last to grasp this actually, as it’s an older civilisation) is moving into the fourth industrial revolution.
And just like the last transitions, it’s bumpy and change is difficult for most people.
I am quietly optimistic that the U.K. is well placed with its cutting edge science sector and AI development to take advantage, but we do need robust leaders and governments to see the potential, harness it and take advantage of our opportunities. I don’t see that in any shape or form in any of the main parties. I see stale leaders with no backbone, energy or vision whatsoever and that depresses me more than anything else.

The U.K. has so much potential in this area and it feels criminal that we don’t have a single politician that has what it takes to deliver on this for us. I look at Sunak and Starmer and despair truly at the terrible choice we will have to make next year!

I take solace from an extremely long history of innovation. I can rest at night knowing this, yes we live in a time of change and the rise of China reminds us we can not afford to be complacent, but tomorrows generation can bring the new energy, creativity and values to shape the future, in a way none of us can envisage now.

Cor, speak for yourself! I think many people have loads of resilience and work hard.

And only some small minds blame immigration.

Please god help and save us from anyone who recommends fresh air, good food and good sleep for mental health problems. Anyone who has suffered or witnessed mental health problems such as panic attacks or anxiety first hand must surely know the 24/7 intense struggle people go through.

Discipline and effort? What are you talking about? Do you tell people with a broken leg that they can mend it through discipline and effort?

My husband was twice admitted to A&E with suspected heart attacks which turned out to be panic attacks. The poor man was literally jumping out of a chair and trying to run away from himself for months on end. Any attempt at normality such as eating a quiet meal, watching tv, walking the dog or listening to gentle music was a knife edge exercise for the whole family because his suffering was constant, intense and terrifying.

I had to beg the receptionist at the GP's surgery for appointments when they had told him he'd have to wait 10 days to see a doctor. We had to pay for counselling as none was available via the NHS, we waited months for NHS group therapy and the only group available was a 15 mile journey away at a time when he was too ill to drive......Please do not tell me or other who have been in this situation that any part of dealing with this is easy. Getting an appointment, even getting a normal effing hour is not easy.

This is something about which you seem to know nothing and keeping your own counsel would be a fine idea.

When did you last go there? Worst state of decline than us. We have potholes, they have collapsed bridges.

California has a higher GDP than the UK...

I agree with you about the terrible choice of politicians we've had recently @Hettyshorses. Same in the USA - Biden or Trump? Two senile old men who should be enjoying their retirement, not leading the largest economy in the world. Thank goodness the US president doesn't actually have that much power. I do think there is a very serious dearth of good leaders though in the western world. I can't think of one country that has a great leader at the moment.

A political class who are too concerned with lining their own pockets & riding the gravy train than running the country in a way that is fair, equitable & humane.

@GabrielleLegs I completely get your sentiment but I think your analogy is flawed. If you have a broken leg the doctors will set it again in the correct position and give you painkillers temporarily whilst the body heals.

Are we steadily declining? I'm not sure that's true. I travel quite a lot, and while there are things I much prefer about other countries (more sunlight, bigger houses, less traffic, more personal space) on the whole I like the UK and enjoy living here.

We obsessively focus on our failings and ignore our successes. For example, English schoolchildren have climbed to fourth place in the world's literacy table. This is the highest they have ever been ranked (we're just behind Hong Kong and Singapore). Our state education is much better than when I was at school (1988-1993). When I was at primary school, none of the teachers even had degrees. The emphasis on league tables and regular testing may be unpopular, but it works.

As for what's wrong with Britain, I'd say:

• Self-loathing. No country can survive, let alone flourish, when it's full of people who hate themselves and are ashamed of their past. The left have way too much influence on British culture. They pretty much run the arts, the universities, the publishing industry, the BBC and most of the media. And the British left hate Britain (they especially hate England). George Orwell noted this nearly 100 years ago.
• Total ignorance of, and lack of pride in, our literature and culture. This, of course, is a product of the self-loathing. More than anything, a nation is defined and bound together by its literature. We are so lucky in this island. We have one of the greatest literary traditions in the world, yet people ignore it. Often, it will be immigrants to Britain (especially anglophile Americans, Canadians and Australians) who show the most interest in our literature and culture.
• Thatcherism. Reforms were needed, and some of her policies were necessary, but she went too far. Her legacy was a nasty, greedy self-centredness. For a country to thrive, people must work hard and be rewarded for it, but they must also think of the common good. A moderate, civilized government encourages both. For a Prime Minister to say "there is no such thing as society" was appalling. She was also a philistine with no respect for art, literature or culture. The Sun newspaper is the perfect symbol of Thatcherism.
• Poor productivity. We just don't make enough. We need more STEM graduates – more engineers and physicists and manufacturers. We also need more people taking up apprenticeships.
• A brain drain. Too many graduates bugger off to Australia and the USA. This was a problem long before Brexit.
• A benefit system that encourages the worst people to have lots of children, who they then raise to be as vicious, ignorant, irresponsible and anti-social as themselves. I am not talking about the poor. I'm talking about a minority of amoral parasites. Unfortunately, it's a large minority. Good people on low incomes (or genuinely disabled, or genuinely mentally ill) are the main victims of this underclass. People who raise feral children, and ruin their neighbour's lives, should not be rewarded or encouraged.
• A victim culture/refusal to shame people. Some people should be shamed for their behavior. If you eat too much and burden the NHS, you should be ashamed. If you can work, yet live on benefits and contribute nothing to society, you should be ashamed. There is something to be said for shaming people into behaving better. Not only is it now OK to be ignorant, rude, vulgar and unable to string a sentence together, people seem proud of it – like they're "keepin it real".

Lol true. As if anyone can get a GP appointment anyway. Even if your leg was falling off they'd just tell you to fill in a form and text you to say they'll ring you for a phone consultation eight weeks later, at my surgery.

Wage stagnation for the lower paid.
when housing has far outstripped wages, if you don’t have the skills to demand the very high wages (£50k plus), and you are living close to minimum wage, then it doesn’t matter how many hours you put in as you will never be able to afford to buy a house in many areas. At which point you wonder what the point of working all those hours are, when you could just work 24 and have your wages topped up with UC. Let’s face it, NHS workers have been striking for months to accepts a 5% rise, benefits are getting a 10.1% rise. Go figure which your best off “earning”.

there is no incentive for the lower paid in society to work any harder than they have to

Surely there must by a financial drain when EVERYBODY and EVERY FAMILY is giving monthly fees to Amazon, Apple, Google and any other US made IT company that provides us with our everyday internet needs.
No wonder the US can afford billions to invest in new tech, green tech.
Never ever have we all happily paid so much to so many foreign companies.
Partly because of this, and the US's ability to buy up any company of any great ability that we should happen to produce and take the profits over there. We, and probably many other EU countries are stuffed long term.

I don't really think we are living on past glories (except maybe WW2) - I live in Scotland and when the SNP came to the fore 10 plus years ago I was excited, waiting for the new ideas, new investment in Science / tech, moving forward in the world etc and what happened - SFA - we have gone backwards. So I don't think it's just the Tory Gov.

Goes back decades to when the rot set in and we started the decline in UK manufacturing, with all kinds of things being manufactured abroad (particularly the far East) instead of in the UK. That just means money flowing out of the UK, i.e. the balance of payments deficit. That caused unemployment and we didn't sell as much exports to other countries, so less money coming in, and again, increasing the balance of payments deficit.

Politicians papered over the cracks by claiming we were becoming a service industry and lauding London's financial services industry, etc., but that's just "funny money" and has cost us billions with the financial crash, bank bail-outs, etc.

As we saw during Covid (and the Suez blockage), we're now far too dependant on imports, and that damages our economy when the flow of imports is disrupted. As we also saw, a huge proportion of our economy disappeared for months as the service industry (hospitality, leisure etc) was virtually closed down and cost billions in furlough and other support. Whereas our food and manufacturing industries carried on throughout with much less disruption as they were "essential" so could carry on.

It's part of another massive shift of wealth from continent to continent. History proves that "empires" ebb and flow. For a couple of hundred years, the "west" has been wealthy, mostly at the cost of poorer countries. Now as manufacturing/tech etc has moved to the far east, the "wealth" is flowing away from the West to the East.

And none for higher earners who pay very high taxes but receive very little benefits.

I don’t think the economic decline is because those on low wages are on low wages. Most are subsidised through benefits.

Money has to come from somewhere and we either can’t raise enough from the shrinking productive workforce or the government is squandering it.

Austerity that was put in place thanks to the banking crash, as far as I know, has meant cut backs in all areas of public sector. So for the ordinary Joe, you can't get a hosp appt, you can't get police, you can't get to speak to someone at planning dept (emails only and weeks/months for reply), schools are skint, no one to sweep streets, pick up litter - upshot is that everything day to day is impossible to resolve, months of wait are the norm and the place looks dirty and scruffy. It would get anyone down.