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Original poster

Why does the UK have 16-17 year olds on adult wards?

349 replies

Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 21:50

Just that. I've always been confused by it. As far as I know, most countries in Europe, or even the world, keep patients in pediatrics until they turn 18 or even 21. Why does the UK move them to adult wards so early? Isn't this a safeguarding risk?

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:13

Runnerduck34 · 17/05/2023 23:10

I think ideally there should be an adolescent ward for teens.
I have teens, thankfully they havent been hospitalised but a close friends 16 year old DD was, she was put in a ward with people in their 70s and 80s, it was a very frightening experience for her. Her parents couldnt stay. My DM has frequent hospital stays and I cant believe that anyone who thinks 16/17 year olds should be on an adult ward, a) have DC that age or b) have experienced / recently visited an adult ward- which can be mixed sex.
Old frail people in hospital are often distressed and confused- constantly crying out.

Yh I agree. It was years ago but when I was admitted to the mixed ward 3 days after my 17th bday, I was traumatised. Every single one of the people in my bay was close to dying. They were moaning, couldn't eat or move. All of them were men and one asked me if I could feed him and that I was pretty. I remember hearing him use the bed pan and it still makes me want to vomit more than 15 years later. I couldn't sleep at all and begged to go home or to the children's ward everyday.

OP posts:
Mumof4alsoabonus · 17/05/2023 23:14

Why does a 16yr old not need paediatric care? My 16yr old has been moved to adult haematology, and adult surgical team, but he still has a community paediatrician. His needs haven’t changed from he was 15 so what has?

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 17/05/2023 23:15

It's the disassociation I don't understand.

8year old not safe to walk 0.3 of a straight pavement mile at school time

Rapist not imprisoned because brain not fully developed until 25

Smoking, gambling, drinking not suitable for children so you need to be 18+

16 at your most vulnerable, scared, in pain, need help advocating- adult ward no parents, full of sick/scary adults.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about this subject:

General health
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:15

picturethispatsy · 17/05/2023 23:11

As a veteran hospital mum of a tween with a transplant, I would not want my 16 year old on an adults ward. A 16/17 year old very poorly kid needs a parent overnight and someone to advocate for them.

I’ve spent many a time on children’s wards and it has never bothered me what age a teenager is. I have noticed however that they do where possible give the older teens a cubicle (own room) with a parent bed which I think is kinder to the teen.

So OP I do share your concerns.

Gosh you must've seen your fair share of wards. Hope your DC is doing well.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:17

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 17/05/2023 23:15

It's the disassociation I don't understand.

8year old not safe to walk 0.3 of a straight pavement mile at school time

Rapist not imprisoned because brain not fully developed until 25

Smoking, gambling, drinking not suitable for children so you need to be 18+

16 at your most vulnerable, scared, in pain, need help advocating- adult ward no parents, full of sick/scary adults.

Lol I'm on that 0.3m walk to school thread too. I agree with all your points. It all seems extremely backwards.

OP posts:
TeenLifeMum · 17/05/2023 23:18

I work in a hospital and the children’s ward goes up to include 17 year olds and even up to 24 for complex patients who’ve had ongoing paeds care. They are in teen bays and never in with 5 year olds. Sometimes they have to be split into side rooms (when teens with eating disorders are encouraging each other etc). We have a bay of 6 for teen girls and a bay of 6 for teen boys but we’d flex if we had 2 boys and 9 girls (boys would probably go in the side rooms). I’m really surprised by hospitals moving them to adults at 16. Our adult wards are full whereas paeds actually has space!

Chatillon · 17/05/2023 23:19

Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 22:04

I remember being on a ward at 17. I had old men next to me, as well as old women. I wanted to run away I was so scared. I had disgusting old men ask me to feed them. No one was allowed to stay the night with me and I was too scared to sleep. It's petrifying and I can't think of any other country that does this.

Show quote history

You are totally bang on the nail OP.

Let’s take a more straightforward example. Your 18 year old son gets diagnosed with a cancer and has to go onto a (male only ward) which is a four man room. The other three are males of various ages 50-95 with life threatening illnesses, dementia or terminally ill. You visit him between 6-8pm then have to say goodbye.

Whether or not he is old enough to join the navy, get married or play the lottery is irrelevant. It’s going to screw him up psychologically. That’s just not right.

Chatillon · 17/05/2023 23:21

Hadn’t read the full thread before I posted, but looks like my point has now already been well made.

Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:21

TeenLifeMum · 17/05/2023 23:18

I work in a hospital and the children’s ward goes up to include 17 year olds and even up to 24 for complex patients who’ve had ongoing paeds care. They are in teen bays and never in with 5 year olds. Sometimes they have to be split into side rooms (when teens with eating disorders are encouraging each other etc). We have a bay of 6 for teen girls and a bay of 6 for teen boys but we’d flex if we had 2 boys and 9 girls (boys would probably go in the side rooms). I’m really surprised by hospitals moving them to adults at 16. Our adult wards are full whereas paeds actually has space!

Are you in the UK?

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:23

Chatillon · 17/05/2023 23:19

You are totally bang on the nail OP.

Let’s take a more straightforward example. Your 18 year old son gets diagnosed with a cancer and has to go onto a (male only ward) which is a four man room. The other three are males of various ages 50-95 with life threatening illnesses, dementia or terminally ill. You visit him between 6-8pm then have to say goodbye.

Whether or not he is old enough to join the navy, get married or play the lottery is irrelevant. It’s going to screw him up psychologically. That’s just not right.

Show quote history

Yea it's strange. I can see the argument once someone is 18, as they really are an adult. But I'm genuinely baffled by the 16-17 age group being treated like this.
Ideally I'd have 16-21 wards.

OP posts:
TeenLifeMum · 17/05/2023 23:24

@Dodgeitornot yes, south west England.

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:25

16 to 17 year olds shouldn't be on children's wards, really, should they? I wouldn't want 16 to 17 year olds in a ward with my 5 or 6 year old. ALTHOUGH I do agree 16 to 17 year olds shouldn't really be with 30, 40, and 50 somethings... and older.

Could do with a sort of maybe 12 to 20 year old ward. But I know that's fiscally impossible. No funding to do it. And where do you draw the line??? No 20 somethings or 30 somethings with anyone over 60? And no 40 somethings and 50 somethings with the over 80s? Where would it stop? Looks like we are stuck with it. Would be too much cost - and hard work to change it.

wildinthecountry · 17/05/2023 23:26

This is really interesting when you consider that a lot of countries have a lower age of consent (sex) than UK .

WheresSpring · 17/05/2023 23:27

I can’t believe anyone with a 16yo DD would want them on a ward with adult men??!! It’s f-ing baffling - we put so much effort into protecting our daughters from the misogyny of current times and then happily leave them at their most vulnerable sleeping on a ward with males we’ve never met and have no knowledge of?! Seriously someone here say they’d happily put their their 16yo in that situation??

Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:31

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:25

16 to 17 year olds shouldn't be on children's wards, really, should they? I wouldn't want 16 to 17 year olds in a ward with my 5 or 6 year old. ALTHOUGH I do agree 16 to 17 year olds shouldn't really be with 30, 40, and 50 somethings... and older.

Could do with a sort of maybe 12 to 20 year old ward. But I know that's fiscally impossible. No funding to do it. And where do you draw the line??? No 20 somethings or 30 somethings with anyone over 60? And no 40 somethings and 50 somethings with the over 80s? Where would it stop? Looks like we are stuck with it. Would be too much cost - and hard work to change it.

Why not? Why shouldn't 16 and 17 year olds be on a child ward. Legally they are children. It's already been explained by those working in hospitals that teens are most often separated.
Would you really want your 12 year old to be on a ward with a 20 year old? Are any of your kids girls? It seems to be mostly parents of young kids that have this view. What could a 16 or 17 year old possibly do to your 5 or 6 year old? They'll likely be too sick to get out of bed and be with one of their parents.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:34

WheresSpring · 17/05/2023 23:27

I can’t believe anyone with a 16yo DD would want them on a ward with adult men??!! It’s f-ing baffling - we put so much effort into protecting our daughters from the misogyny of current times and then happily leave them at their most vulnerable sleeping on a ward with males we’ve never met and have no knowledge of?! Seriously someone here say they’d happily put their their 16yo in that situation??

Same same. Although most people seem to agree they're against mixed wards. I still find it baffling that someone would prefer their 16year old on a ward with scarily ill adults only separated by a privacy curtain. The decision whether your can stay with your DC being at the at the mercy of the night nurse too.

OP posts:
Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:35

TeenLifeMum · 17/05/2023 23:24

@Dodgeitornot yes, south west England.

Damn, should've lived there.

OP posts:
DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:36

WheresSpring · 17/05/2023 23:27

I can’t believe anyone with a 16yo DD would want them on a ward with adult men??!! It’s f-ing baffling - we put so much effort into protecting our daughters from the misogyny of current times and then happily leave them at their most vulnerable sleeping on a ward with males we’ve never met and have no knowledge of?! Seriously someone here say they’d happily put their their 16yo in that situation??

Where have people said they would want their 16 year old daughter with adult men? I certainly never said that.

Beseen22 · 17/05/2023 23:37

I don't want to answer this as if I'm pro elder teens being on adult wards because im not but I've had a think about a few reasons why the NHS might make the decision.

  1. Nurse patient ratio. The goal is 1:4 for pediatric care. I've very rarely had a nightshift on a ward with less than 17 patients. Just like nurseries moving kids up to rooms with easier to staff ratios I can see why NHS management may prefer the 17yo to be in adult care. This opens up a massive discussion about how unsafe the adult nursing ratios are and how dangerous it is not to have mandated ratios defined by government.
  1. Medically a 17yo post puberty is more similar to an adult than a child. Peds uses different scoring systems to rate vital signs than adult nurses would, ie 'which score do I get to let me know when to worry about this patient?'
  1. It's tricky rn because it's a bit of a summer clear out but during winter the idea of having specialist 15-18 wards just seems unachievable. In a small hospital the flow is just so poor that corridor nursing has become common place. So we should be sending a renal patient to a renal ward because they have specialist knowledge in it. There's no beds there so they go as a 'boarder' to endocrinology. Then I can't get an Endo patient who needs that bed because the ward is full of 'boarders' from other specialities. In reality if someone needed a bed fast (ie actively deteriorating or need a side room as had a terminal event) then they go where there is a bed regardless of where the most appropriate place would be.

I have looked after teens, usually in a surgical ward and if a single room is available they would get it but clinical need takes priority. Thankfully it is often short term because they usually recover quickly. If it was felt inappropriate for parent to stay (not often the SN would get to make this decision) I would support the family with extra communication as I have kids and know how anxious they are. I would guide then to the visiting policy which often is open visiting until 10pm, so they have a leaflet they can refer to if they get someone less helpful. If they lived far out of town I can arrange patient hotel so they are on site. And of course I would make sure they were in the bed closest to the nurses station and keep a close eye, I understand how vulnerable you are during your first admission.

Also to play devil's advocate not every 17yo has the same family set up as imagined here. Sometimes they are in for more complex mature reasons (drug use/overdose/pregnancy or miscarriage). Often they present alone or with a boyfriend and nobody phones for an update and they are more confident at navigating the hospital setting without parental influence.

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:38

Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:31

Why not? Why shouldn't 16 and 17 year olds be on a child ward. Legally they are children. It's already been explained by those working in hospitals that teens are most often separated.
Would you really want your 12 year old to be on a ward with a 20 year old? Are any of your kids girls? It seems to be mostly parents of young kids that have this view. What could a 16 or 17 year old possibly do to your 5 or 6 year old? They'll likely be too sick to get out of bed and be with one of their parents.

Show quote history

You may not want your 16-17 year old with 'adult men and women' (over 18)Confused but I wouldn't want MY 5 year old on the same ward as your 16-17 year old.

So what's the solution then, seeing as you seem to have all the answers. Go on then...

Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:39

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:36

Where have people said they would want their 16 year old daughter with adult men? I certainly never said that.

Show quote history

Almost all adult wards I've seen are mixed so I guess that's where that's stemmed from. I guess it's also the fact there doesn't seem to be any overriding rule around this. Each area seems to decide their own rules. Some putting them on mixed wards, some on Peds, some allowing parents to stay whilst others not. There really should be more safeguarding for the 16-17 age group within medicine.

OP posts:
Mumof4alsoabonus · 17/05/2023 23:39

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:25

16 to 17 year olds shouldn't be on children's wards, really, should they? I wouldn't want 16 to 17 year olds in a ward with my 5 or 6 year old. ALTHOUGH I do agree 16 to 17 year olds shouldn't really be with 30, 40, and 50 somethings... and older.

Could do with a sort of maybe 12 to 20 year old ward. But I know that's fiscally impossible. No funding to do it. And where do you draw the line??? No 20 somethings or 30 somethings with anyone over 60? And no 40 somethings and 50 somethings with the over 80s? Where would it stop? Looks like we are stuck with it. Would be too much cost - and hard work to change it.

Why not? Genuine question. I have spent more than my fair share of time in hospitals with 2 of my children having medical issues. They have been patients from 3weeks and 6weeks old and are now 13 and 16. So various ages. When they were little I had no concerns at them being there with teens, now they are teens I have no concerns at them being there with younger children, and it never occurred to me that other parents would. Last time we were in paeds with my then 15yr old he was playing board games with the little ones around us. The parents seemed happy with that. Parents stay with their children so I don’t see how they are at risk. My son certainly needed me there to look after him, comfort him, and advocate for him. How only a few months later is he expected to be an adult in an adult ward and all that entails? He still needs his mum and especially when he’s ill. There’s no way he would cope with a couple of hours of me visiting. He wouldn’t be able to speak with the doctors and advocate for himself. He’s still a child.

PaddingtonTheAngelofDeath · 17/05/2023 23:41

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:38

You may not want your 16-17 year old with 'adult men and women' (over 18)Confused but I wouldn't want MY 5 year old on the same ward as your 16-17 year old.

So what's the solution then, seeing as you seem to have all the answers. Go on then...

Show quote history

Why are you so aggressive? This is a discussion forum, this is a discussion.

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:43

@Beseen22

Medically a 17yo post puberty is more similar to an adult than a child.

Exactly! Saying a person who is almost an adult, (16-17) should not be near anyone over 18 in a ward, but should be with bloody toddlers instead is laughable really!

Original poster
Dodgeitornot · 17/05/2023 23:44

DannyZukosSmile · 17/05/2023 23:38

You may not want your 16-17 year old with 'adult men and women' (over 18)Confused but I wouldn't want MY 5 year old on the same ward as your 16-17 year old.

So what's the solution then, seeing as you seem to have all the answers. Go on then...

Show quote history

You've not answered a single one of my questions. What is it you feel will happen to your 5 year old? Why is over 18 followed by a confused face? 16-17 year olds are children by law. They're not adults. Most adult wards have very old people on them. Not young or even middle aged adults.
You have suggested wards for 12-20 year olds. Would you really want your 12 year old on a ward with a 20 year old? I appreciate your child is 5, but one day they'll be 16. God forbid they'll be poorly enough to need hospitalisation, I really don't think you'll have the same attitude you have now.
I also hate to break it to you, but if you live in the south west, your child would be on a ward with 17 hear olds as a PP said. They, like almost all children's wards in the UK, separate the young kids from teens. This has been explained multiple times.

OP posts: