I can't keep doing this 😭

[Diy25]

DS has just turned 16 . For a while he has been very aggressive towards me and violent. He does have alot of mental heath stuff going on. He is getting help from CAMHS. He has toned down the way he talks to me compared to say a few months or so back.

But his attitude towards me is just awful. He thinks I have to answer to him. He questions me in an awful tone why his siblings are not in school. The tone is like im a bit of shit on the bottom of his shoe.

Hes been having his music on so loud along with the base that it's vibrating the house and no one can hear their stuff such as the TV. And the feel of the vibration is awful. I asked him to turn it down. And he starts his nasty tone saying "I bet (sister) is moaning . And she has her music on" she does have it on but at a normal volume and there's no base etc she's only using an amazon speaker.. also it was not her asking but me .

I really want to make it clear that ds does have massive problems with his mental health to the extent he tried to end his life several months ago. I know his therapist is looking into possible ADHD also doing an assessment to do with cognitive thinking?

I'm going to sound awful when I say this . I don't mean to be but I have to say it or it does not give the full information. I have noticed that when he has a go at me or especially Dd. When he gets caught out with something he has moaned about or done some shit staring he starts saying DD says things like just go and kill yourself just die.. DD does not know what happend several months ths back . Also I have never heard her say it. I have heard her shout things like get out of my room fuck off etc but I have never heard her say go kill yourself. And he seems to fall onto that every time he gets caught out.

Please don't think I do t care about what happend to him I truly do and I thought for a very long time to get him help . And if I did not care I would not have put up with all the stuff I have.

All this should be very simple stuff. All the to loud music and similar stuff should be typical teenage /family stuff . But the reaction is beyond that. Even asking about food /Dinner he demands. Talks to me like shit.

I'm practically making a 12 year old walk on eggs shells . Then what am I showing her for when she's older its ok for males to treat you this way. Wtf am I doing 🥺

Dd has not been well past day or so. I have to drag her on buses etc when she's not well because they can't be left in the house together.

For info . Ds Is not in education. I'm a single parent.

I may end up explaining more as I go as this has not been easy to write. As I have said i love him dearly but sometimes it's to much . If I feel any comments are over the top nasty then I will not be replying.

I also wouldn't at all feel guilty if he moves onto some kind of accommodation...but he will still need a lot of parental support.

I think this is an important point.

OP by keeping your daughter safe you don't have to abandon your son.

You can support him away from the home to get better and to try to get his life back on track.

Does he have any uncles or older male figures in his life who you could lean on for some support?

When you say he is violent, do you mean that he has physically assaulted you? What would happen if you were to step up the discipline and remove his electronics when he is being antisocial?

Yes I get what your saying. I guess its kind of why I posted where I said I can't do this anymore which is the same for dd really.

As I said he has got better compared to what he was. But as soon as I hear his tone. I feel all churned up inside and think its gonna kick of and I'm shitting myself. And im scared of saying simple things to him. But is that more to do with me where I'm not letting go of stuff ? Like what's in my op is what happend today . Of course its not about the music as such. More to do with how he talks and how aggressive he is. But nothing come of it today and I have got myself all wound up .

I'm definitely going to talk to CAMHS and tell her the impact its having on dd. And that we can't go on like this . There might be a possibility she can talk to him also maybe some suggestions.

No there's no older make figures.

Erm he's twistest my arm before and kind of physically backed me onto a corner.

He screams and shouts very aggressively. He will smash things up. One time he kicked every spindle on the stair case . , punched holes in walls and doors. And throws stuff. /heavy objects. There's lots of stuff. I think i have blocked some of it out.

I have been advised not to overly push with disapline as it can provoke him. And taking his xbox would not gain anything apart from more aggression.

Your DD is too vulnerable to be living in a house with him in it. She can't even be ill in bed FFS but has to get up and go out because he's a danger to her. She has the stress of seeing her mother putting up with domestic violence, verbal abuse and being victim to her brother trampling over her boundaries too (coming into her room unwanted etc and what's he saying/doing that causes her to tell him to fuck off?).

Your son sounds highly manipulative. He's not engaging with help, presumably that's because he doesn't see the way he behaves as any kind of problem. As you say, he thinks he rules the roost and you should answer to him. That's not the mindset of someone who wants to change.

Therapist won't say about medication because that's not how it works in the UK, only doctors can prescribe. So a GP or psychiatrist. I'd be issuing ultimatums at this stage.... You've got two(?) DC. One of them you can still save, prioritise her.... I'd be telling your son you expect him to take meds with a view to helping him control his behaviour. If he refuses (or it doesn't work, because its an attitude problem that can't be medicated away) then he's out. You can't sacrifice your daughter to try to save a son who's already so far gone he possibly can't be saved anyway.

SS have their own agenda sure, but they can't force you to live this way. If you tell them he can't live with you, they'll have to make alternative provision whether they like it or not. Maybe he needs a high level of interventions, 24/7 one-to-one carers or something? As you say, all they're looking at is his needs (and their own budget) and fuck everyone else's mental health (and physical health) needs. While he's with you and they can make out you're an adequate carer for him, he won't get the specialist support he possibly needs. He needs more than mothering. You could actually mother him better from afar when you're not living in a domestic abuse relationship with him.

If he's too old for their provision then he goes to the council and registers as homeless, until they help him he's sleeping on a friend's floor or the street. Assuming he has any friends, with his attitude. He can still get care through SS as an adult via a MH social worker.

None of what you've posted screams mental health issues, except the suspected ADHD and suicide attempt, which are obviously serious. The rest sounds like an attitude problem to me. Probably he's been listening for years to influential dickheads on social media spewing their hatred for women, who they see as lesser than men.

But as soon as I hear his tone. I feel all churned up inside and think its gonna kick of and I'm shitting myself. And im scared of saying simple things to him. But is that more to do with me where I'm not letting go of stuff ?

No pet, it's the natural reaction of someone who has been in a long term abusive relationship. There's something wrong with your thinking that you shoul even be letting go of stuff. Abusive people like to "press the reset button* and sweep their bad behaviour under the carpet and their victim has to act like it didn't happen and never bring it up again, or the abuser gets angry and accuses the victim of being unreasonable (they're not).

Who is telling you not to discipline him because it'll provoke him? That's "how to not get yourself killed" advice, for short term safety until you can get the abuser out of your house/life. It's not ok as a long term way of living. It will destroy you.

And will do nothing to address the underlying issues of why he thinks it's ok to treat you like this. In fact, it'll reinforce it that he's right and should have his own way. It teaches him that if he's violent (and make no mistake, he has been), aggressive and manipulative, it gets him what he wants. You've no chance of him changing his behaviour when it's being reinforced every day that he can do whatever he likes without consequences.

You're being too kind. If you start calling the police over every single one of these incidences, he'll be far more likely to get the help he needs. Until the authorities can see, on paper, a pattern of distructive behaviour SS will brush it off as just a typical teenage spat.

If you're unwilling to get this abuser out of your house, do you have another relative you can send DD to live with? Absolutely no way should she be living in this environment.

I just had a look . Who in referring as a therapist is actually a clinical psychologists.

Thank you so much for your reply. It actually makes alot of sense. I'm hoping to actually ask CAMHS about medication. I don't think it can come from them? but its possible they could advice . Maybe we can look into things a bit deeper. I think I'm just going to be very blunt even if i sound horrible and tell her exactly how i feel and how dd feels and how it's all effecting us. And that it (can't) go on anymore. And that he will have to leave if he cant changed because its all let's protect DS let's do egg shells fuck everyone else. And I'm also showing DD this is how men treat you and you must put up with it.

He went in her room to bug her over xbox controller.. they are not allowed in each others room. Also they are not allowed in the kitchen at the same time but guaranteed he will just walk in to get a drink or grab something. He thinks no rules apply to him . And basically when she's should get out. He started saying she told me to kill myself. I think its just he got caught out so used that as the strongest thing he could.

I'm not sure I agree with the last bit you said . About mental health issues. I mean he can't be happy howvhe is surely . Then there's self harming etc. He's admitted to therapist how he can be as well . But I don't know either way to be honest.

If you are too scared of him to impose any kind of discipline whatsoever then he cannot continue to live in your home. Agree with pp over supported accommodation. He would probably thank you for it in the long run. I'm sorry you are going through this.

He's abusive and violent and you're afraid of him, OP (and I don't blame you). He has to move out. You must put you and your daughter's safety first.

I totally understand how hard this is for you though. I'm so sorry you're having to deal with all this.

If anyone had to leave the house it will be Ds.

It was social services who said about laying of disapline as it could provoke him etc .

I did call police once they took 6 hours to arrive.

When I have said in the past that I feel like I'm in a domestic violence relationship. It's not even been acknowledged.

Who in referring as a therapist is actually a clinical psychologists.

Thank you so much for your reply. It actually makes alot of sense. I'm hoping to actually ask CAMHS about medication. I don't think it can come from them?

You're welcome. Yes CAMHS will have psychiatrist who can prescribe. Psychologist is a doctor but they do talking therapy (and can help diagnose) not prescribe medication.

When I have said in the past that I feel like I'm in a domestic violence relationship. It's not even been acknowledged.

It feels like it because that's what it is. You and DD when she's older should do women's aid Freedom program to get your thoughts clearer.

Doesn't matter police took 6hrs (well it does and if you're in danger keep calling back), report the crime, every single time. Damage to your home, physical assault etc. Report each one.

I suspect SS children's dept are trying to stall this situation until he's 18 when he becomes another dept's problem. They're good at things like that IME. You don't have to follow their (bad) advice to sacrifice yourself and DD wellbeing for the sake of keeping everyone alive. You're allowed to want more out of life than being alive.

Re what's going on with DS. It's possible to have MH issues and be an arsehole. It doesn't have to be one or the other. Lots of people who are knobs and alienated everyone do then feel unhappy about how nobody likes them and they've got no friends, they can even get depressed about it. What matters isn't which came first, but what he does about it going forward. Ultimately, it's his own life he's ruining if he doesn't engage properly with the help available. It's good you've seen an improvement in a few months, but that doesn't mean you should continue to put up with his nonsense. It's his underlying beliefs that need to change and that takes time, if it happens at all. You deserve to be safe while you wait and see how he turns out.

Get Social services to house him now, once you get to 17 in the system it is much harder, almost impossible.
This age is the perfect time to get him out but also set him on the path to access the right help, don't miss the opportunity because you feel guilty.

In blunt terms are you saying . Doing it now if I have to, would be better as once hes 18 they could basically put him on the street but if it's done now they will have a duty to him?

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, leaving it until later will mean qualifying for help and accessing it will be 100 times harder.

If you get him in there now Social services are able to house and support educationally up to 25.

I was able to access college and university through SS, they paid for my Supportive accommodation and then housing I needed to complete my course ( away from my area ) counselling and therapy.

This is an opportunity to not only make your home safer for yourself and your DD but to also set him up with the kind of support you would have to sell a house to get once he is an adult.

This is not giving up on him, he needs special help that any mother just can not provide for him, it's not your fault OP.

They will give him a chance to make something of himself, calm down and develop coping strategies for life if he wants to, you can still have a relationship and support him if he goes down this route.

Just think about it, think about it without feeling guilty, it's not giving up on him, it's giving him a chance that not every young person gets.

Thank you . I'm shitting it though . Because I feel like in failing him even if I'm not .

I wounder if I can talk to him. Kind of say whay you just did and make it a plan keep it positive.

The only thing is though is of they moved him a long way fro home. That would definitely fuck him up

Am sorry to hear what you have been going through.
Did CAHMS complete a formulation?
You said about social services being involved, I wonder what the outcome of their assessment was. I think there is still a need and I would call them everytime you struggle with your son's behaviour.
Does your local CAHMS offer NVR therapy( non violent resistance)?
Aware others are querying medication, however it sounds more like trauma/emotional disregulation and within CAHMS first line of intervention is not medication. Also symptoms of trauma can present akin to asd.
Also worth asking SS if they can offer any parenting courses.

Good luck x

Social services have never been interested.

Whats a formulation?

NVR not sure that would help. He's 6ft4 all arms and legs I can't get near him.

Parenting classes no definitely not .my other children are totally fine . There is no issue with my parenting

I have spoken to his clinical psychologists. A good few times I'm very honest with her . And she can see I have a good understanding of what's going in.

Ds has even admitted he knows what he's doing is wrong But he does mot know why he does it. Psychologists thinks its because I'm his safe person.

Yes they are doing the ADHD assessment I understand that asd and adhd can cross over so maybe they will look at that to .

Oh and yes I understand about CAMHS and medication. I don't think that should happen unless it's absolutely needed and would help. And obviously have to try different things first.

NVR is about not getting drawn into responding to your child's behaviours but about how you respond to their actions.
NVR gained popularity due to the parents and professionals recognising that some children find it hard to be guided by adults through reward and punishment which can lead to escalations in violence. NVR offers a chance to address behaviours whilst also conveying love to your child.
I work for CAHMS as a therapist and give this therapy to families/carers looking after complex young people most of them in care. Have a look at it or ask your therapist if they can offer it to you. You need support as your son's behaviour is clearly affecting you and others in your household.
Formulation is a thorough assessment/outcome that explains current difficulties, why they may be happening and just making sense of them really.
Hope that makes sense

Thank you . I will definitely ask about it. I have asked her to call me so will ask about it.

@Zipporah83

That sounds amazing il look into that myself.
I'm not a fan of reward / punishment behaviour as its so limited (toddler gets a chocolate for good behaviour but what will they want by the time they are a teen? Severe punishments also have limits as how far do they go? And again, once child is adult sized then they will react).
Natural consequences much better (if we take too long to leave the house we won't have time to visit xyz, I've got some lovely stickers here but let's get you dressed so that we can put one on your top).

All of this is of course a bit past where op is upto, everyone in this scenario will benefit from professional help and a different domestic environment. Op if it gives any comfort I have a friend who was in Foster care she said it was the best thing that happened to her, once she turned 16 she was given supportive accommodation. She now has a pretty decent relationship with her Mum.

You say it is not affecting your daughter and that she isn’t showing signs.

My DP & I both come from toxic hostile households. My trauma from it made me an angry, easy to trigger person who retaliates to things the way I was treated.

But my DP isn’t like that. Instead he’s the quiet sort who has horrific anxiety, is a people pleaser with terribly low self esteem and internalises his pain which eats him up.

Just because your DD doesn’t show signs now, does not determine how she will process the trauma her brother is causing.

They see it that i keep his siblings safe as they are never left alone .. but seens to be fuck everyone else's mental health. I'm saying that but no magic wound is there

Keeping your children apart, and walking on eggshells isn’t keeping them safe, removing them from the house because he’s violent isn’t keeping them safe. I’m not saying that from a place of judgement - you’re doing the best you can in pretty intolerable circumstances. It’s impossible to protect your kids when you can’t protect yourself.

There is a role for social work here in protecting you and your other children, in exactly the same way as if it was an adult male partner being violent. They are ideally placed to address his support needs but will resist doing so because of resources. You sound at breaking point, I’d be explaining very clearly just how bad it is for you and your other children and exploring alternative accommodation for him, the earlier you do that (and the harder you push) the better.

You’re not failing him, he’s beyond your control because of his age, size, strength and his vulnerability - there’s nothing you can do about that and you can’t keep living like this. If it can be presented as a supportive measure to get him the help he needs rather than as a punishment it can be a positive move to look at safe care arrangements for him. There are therapeutic communities/living arrangements that make a huge difference to young people like your son. You’ll need to fight the system to get there, but it sounds like you’re already fighting, it’s just a different battle.

I didn't make it clear that reports to the police isn't (just) as punishment, it's so they'll report to SS, who won't be able to ignore the police like they ignored you. SS also won't offer you somewhere else for him to live, you'll have to tell them he can't live with you any more and mean it. If he's removed from the house by police due to his behaviour you can refuse to have him back, which forces SS to get involved. I don't know what supported accommodation is like, whether it's self-contained or shared or what, but it might be easier for him to cope just from the perspective of taking the parent/child dynamic out of the equation.

When I called the police before they took 6 hours to come out. Alm they did was tell ds to stop giving mum a hard time shes doing her best . Then I got a call from social worker telling me police had contacted them telling my house was a mess. Well yeah we was very over crowded at the time. And ds had trashed it. She then asked if I was in temporary accommodation. I said yes . She said ah ok. That's fine we just needed to check. And that was it.

And more recently its not actual violence. Its more how he talks to me and his tone . He would raise his voice there's an aggressive tone within his voice . For me i hate it and it does scare me and make Me feel worthless . And I also think its going to lead to some form of violence.