New UC rules to force both partners to work ??

[Citrusmuffin]

I can’t find anything online about this but have heard it’s being changed as previously there had to be a certain number of hours worked but this could be by just one partner but now it’s being changed to make both work even though the total household hours don’t change??

This seems very unfair and taking away choice for some families in difficult circumstances. I just can’t find the official guidance is anyone able to link to it ? Thanks

"The more people who decide to work part time and "claim top ups" because they feel they are "entitled to" do so when they don't actually needto - they could work more but don't want to - the poorer we will all be. And the shitter education, healthcare, etc will become. It is all basic maths in the end."

Can we just be clear here - you think the cuts to public services we've seen over the past decade are the fault of too many poor people claiming top-up benefits, rather than the inevitable outcomes of ideologically driven policies to reduce spending on public services?

No.

Why do people always try to turn discussions about economics into political nonsense. If it helps you listen to what I have to say, although it's irrelevant to the point, I think our Government for the last 13 years has been the worst in modern history.

I'm talking about possible ways forward from here. T We have a very narrow tax base and very, very low rates at the lower end. If we want better public services, people need to pay for them. All people. And actually work to capacity and contribute, not expect others to fund their living costs.

he UK's economy has shrunk from 90% size of Germany's to 70% in just a few years since Brexit. If people want the economy to improve and living standards to rise then UK productivity needs to increase, they also need to lobby their Government to rejoin the single market and customs union. We need money to invest in infrastructure and education (Brexit is costing in tax revenue the equivalent of the entire state education budget per year and rising). Both of these areas need budgets at least doubling. We need to reform the areas of public spending that are largest and badly run: make benefits contributory (excluding disability benefits) and set up a European model of healthcare. Then we will have sufficient money to pay for functioning services, and can start focusing on energy and food security.

That is what a competent Government would do. Sadly nobody in HOC looks remotely capable of forming a competent Government. My point is not party political. This is about economic reality. You cannot have a country with world class public services if only 20% of the population is contributing more than it takes out. You end up in a spiral of cuts which will then lower living standards further, hence the UK's GDP per capita now being one of the lowest in western Europe. So either everybody starts pulling their weight and contributing more, or the downwards spiral will continue.

"Why do people always try to turn discussions about economics into political nonsense"

Because changes to the benefits system and diminishing access to affordable housing have hugely increased the precariousness of life for people on very low incomes - who are the people we're discussing here - and these things have been driven by political priorities.

And understanding these things will maybe open your eyes to appreciating why the poorest people in this country are unwilling to take up very low paid and precarious work in preference to claiming benefits.

"This is about economic reality"

The economic realities of life for people who are genuinely struggling to manage are dictating their choices.

If you want the government to force - let's face it, mainly working class women with small children - into low paid and precarious work, while there's not sufficient or affordable childcare in place, and while we have a totally dysfunctional housing and benefits system - don't expect to see huge economic returns.

"make benefits contributory"

You want to make unemployment benefit unavailable for vast numbers of the poorest people in the country?

You've not read what I wrote properly. I think there should be a doubling of the education budget and universal free childcare. But this isn't feasible unless people also accept they must work if not disabled, and by that I don't mean a few hours per week, and also that they must pay tax. You can't possibly fund decent investment that drives economic growth and increased living standards, a good healthcare system and a properly funded education system if huge swathes of able-bodied people don't work at all and think it's their "right" to have everyone else pay their living costs. Or to work part time because it's more convenient and expect others to top up their income. You can only have those services if people stop being so entitled and contribute properly, and it's very clear from many posts on here that lots of people won't if they can get away with not doing so. It's a completely different mentality than you have in countries that have good services and functioning societies where everybody sees it as their civic duty to contribute. Of course we won't be able to fund decent services if we're funding millions of people to work part time or be SAHP when they are perfectly capable of working. And of course living standards will continue to drop if fewer and fewer people pay in more than they take out.

That's not a political opinion, it's basic economics. How long do you think foreign investors will continue to be prepared to fund the balance of payments deficit for that has quadrupled since Brexit? How do you propose that the country sustains itself of props up GBP (already massively devalued in recent times) without significant investment in education, infrastructure, energy security, food security, water security, and sectors where we are strong like pharmaceuticals, tech, etc? How do you think the UK will control inflation or continue to be able to afford the imports it is reliant on that are paid for in foreign currencies - essentials like food and energy - if it doesn't have something to sell to fund this? And trading relationships without self-erected trade barriers that enable you to do so without prohibitive costs.

Being born in the UK doesn't give any of us a right to a certain standard of living. The wealth of nations rises and falls. The times ahead in the next few decades will make Covid look like a blip. These things need to be done unless people want their children and grandchildren hugely impoverished. My suspicion is it won't happen and the UK will therefore become increasingly poorer.

But if you actually want solutions, I've proposed some. You disagree. So what are yours? What are your realistic solutions of how you'd improve the structure of the UK economy and raise funding for services?

@izimbra @AlienEgg you are both quite correct but in different ways

Our housing and childcare and benefits systems are inadequate and bring up huge anomalies and the kind of bun fights we see on here -

The number of people not contributing is causing a huge issue.

@izimbra I think you are wrong though about it being all about women with small children. There are lots of fit and well older people with no under 5s at all taking the piss- who are actively choosing to do much lesser hours- if any / because they can 'get by' ok- particularly if they have social housing and a few older children at home. I know several people in this position. The system doesn't help at all either as they wouldn't be considerably better off even if they both worked as none are in the position to get well paid jobs

30 hours! That’s part time, how about one of them getting full time job before being allowed to claim benefits ffs!

"There are lots of fit and well older people with no under 5s at all taking the piss- who are actively choosing to do much lesser hours- if any / because they can 'get by' ok- particularly if they have social housing and a few older children at home. I know several people in this position."

I'm a 'fit and well older person with no under 5s' - I work full time. I have a teenage son with cancer and psychosis, and a mum of 88 who both need my help - constantly. I don't claim benefits because my part time work is well paid enough to disqualify me for carers allowance.

Am I 'taking the piss' because I pay very little tax (because I don't earn much)?

That should read: 'I work part time'.

"But this isn't feasible unless people also accept they must work if not disabled, and by that I don't mean a few hours per week, and also that they must pay tax."

You want to get rid of the personal allowance now?

"It's a completely different mentality than you have in countries that have good services and functioning societies where everybody sees it as their civic duty to contribute."

Are you making a case that the benefits system in the UK is vastly more generous than that of other similar countries?

FYI - social spending as a percentage of GDP: UK is at number 17, behind
France
Belgium
Finland
Italy
Denmark
Austria
Sweden
Germany
Norway
Spain
Greece
Luxembourg
Japan
Slovenia
Poland

So much for our ridiculously generous benefits system...

@izimbra of course not- and I'm so sorry about your son. there are always people who have very good and genuine reasons- I'm talking about the people who don't have good reason and do claim- I know One who also gets incredibly good maintanance too that is totally on top of all her benefits. Also One fitand well couple in their 40s with a fit and well 16 year old where the woman doesn't work and the guy works part time -they claim a fair bit and told me it wasn't worth the woman working .

I partly blame the system too . I want the system to be much better for those who genuinely can't work whatever the circumstances- not propping up those who calculate down to the last Penny whether they can be arsed.

BTW - if you're asking about people over 50 not working - you might want to have a look a the evidence on age discrimination in recruitment.

You might also want to consider that there are currently 7.8 million people on NHS waiting lists, with the majority being older people.

@izimbra I'm 61 and at the moment it's a good job we work for ourselves as I've got long covid and nasty neuro shit- so I am very aware of issues for over 50's- there are many extenuating circumstances whilst some people can't work it can only manage a few hours a week- and I have every sympathy- I don't though have sympathy with many who choose certain options and are happy to claim benefits when there are no good reasons to do so other than 'they can'
I'm not a Tory either and if you genuinely don't think there are people who do think this way- there really are- I employed one- she didn't want to do more hours (20 rather than 16) because she calculated it out and would have been only £30 a week better off. (No child care implications) -

If DS is still eligible to be on your claim it is worth rechecking your eligibility for UC if you don’t earn much. Parents with a disabled DC can often earn more than many realise before they are no longer eligible. For example, a single adult over 25, with 1 DC born before 6/4/17 who is eligible for the disabled child element and carer element could earn more than £2.4k per month and still be eligible.

"there are always people who have very good and genuine reasons"

You're arguing for systemic changes which would make life incredibly hard for people in identical situations to mine who aren't married to someone on a middle or high income.

BTW - there are vast number of very wealthy people who are engaged in tax avoidance in the UK. Not because they can't afford to pay the same rates of tax as people on PAYE, but because they CAN. Because it's easier for them.

But you're more interested in moralising about people on low incomes claiming top up benefits?

"If DS is still eligible to be on your claim it is worth rechecking your eligibility for UC if you don’t earn much. Parents with a disabled DC can often earn more than many realise before they are no longer eligible. For example, a single adult over 25, with 1 DC born before 6/4/17 who is eligible for the disabled child element and carer element could earn more than £2.4k per month and still be eligible."

I'm not eligible. My husband is a higher rate tax payer.

I'm not arguing for myself. I'm extremely lucky.

@izimbra Just thought I would mention it in case it applied to you.

Not about you specifically, but more generally even with one person a higher rate tax payer some can still be eligible for UC. We would be if we didn’t have savings because of disabled DC.

No PP is not saying that
She/ he is saying …’everyone sees it as a civic duty to contribute’.

So people in other countries understand they need to pay taxes through work and hence contribute to society. Ie ….civic duty…..

That is why for example France is at the top of your list. They have a sense of civic duty and work to pay taxes = better support
And why the UK is at no17. = lack of civic duty = less taxes and NI = less support.

"everyone sees it as a civic duty to contribute"

Unemployment is lower in the UK than it is in France. Considerably.