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Original poster

Can a capacity assessment for medical reasons ever be done without the patients knowledge?

124 replies

autonomyagain · 27/04/2023 15:54

Or would the patient know as they’d have to attend for tests etc?

I assume it would be documented in notes too?

Can these ever be done in a less formal way by a gp just about one issue or is it always a formal assessment that then removes autonomy for everything not just one thing ?

OP posts:
SecretDoor · 07/05/2023 12:16

I truly hope you have someone to talk things through with. Your pain is palpable 💐

Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:18

SecretDoor · 07/05/2023 12:16

I truly hope you have someone to talk things through with. Your pain is palpable 💐

It feels worse since 2020 when I got my notes . It was almost easier to not know the truth and blame myself ? I kept thinking maybe I hadn’t spoken loud enough, maybe I imagined telling who I did ? All these scenarios but then to see about 20 pages where it was detailed how I’d clearly stated it wasn’t my choice and begged for help and for all involved to record that and not act on it ? I’m so angry. I keep thinking how did my mother have ALL the power and they all just did what she said ?

OP posts:
Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:18

I go to counselling each week it’s difficult but it does help to talk.

OP posts:

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General health
gogohmm · 07/05/2023 12:21

I've read through this and firstly I wanted to say that it is so sad for you, you were let down. But the person really to blame was your mother, she coerced you into signing rather than you not having capacity (your original question). The doctors etc don't get off though, they should have taken you aside from your mother and asked you if you want to back out but it sounds like they were taken in my her insistence that it was the right thing to do. The retired gp is no longer practicing so there's little point in taking that further and consent procedures have changed quite a lot, I'm pretty sure it couldn't happen now. Even those with severe learning disabilities are considered to have bodily consent (against our wishes in our case, they won't even brush her teeth or shower her unless she is willing, tricky when she's an 80kg women with no concept of what is good for her)

CaptainSeven · 07/05/2023 12:22

OP - from what you've said this isn't and never has been your fault.

You did not consent.

This was done to you against your wishes. You were manipulated and coerced.

If you are holding on to any guilt please let that go.

You were vulnerable (not because of your history, but because of your Mum) and should have been kept safe from her.

I'm so sorry this happened to you.

CaptainSeven · 07/05/2023 12:25

When a dear friend's pregnancy failed to progress she had a personal, private service of memorial and planted a tree.

Could you do the same for your baby? As part of your healing process?

You did speak out and up. You did advocate for yourself and your baby.

You were failed by many others. Starting with your Mum.

Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:29

CaptainSeven · 07/05/2023 12:25

When a dear friend's pregnancy failed to progress she had a personal, private service of memorial and planted a tree.

Could you do the same for your baby? As part of your healing process?

You did speak out and up. You did advocate for yourself and your baby.

You were failed by many others. Starting with your Mum.

i need to do something. I was so so upset after as I had asked what had happened to the baby and nobody would talk to me, I’m the end my mother shouted at me ‘it went in the incinerator with the rest of the hospital rubbish’
I was destroyed.
She said they had asked her while I was still in recovery although there’s no mention of that in the notes . When I asked for my notes a few years after the consultant had refused but I’m his letter telling the gp I was trying to get my notes he said I was traumatised and anxious to know what happened to ‘the tissue’
All I have left is my12 week scan photo (I’d managed to get out of the house one day when she was at work as I’d booked in to a diff hospital- the gp knew this so they really knew I was trying to go ahead) the scan photo is now degrading and it’s all I have and it upsets me

OP posts:
Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:30

I think the light ruins the scan paper as I have it in a frame but maybe I should put it away but that hurts me to

OP posts:
LadyLolaRuben · 07/05/2023 12:36

autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 11:40

The GP is now retired, the consultant is still practising but it was so long ago would they even look at this ?

Yes absolutely. Time doesn't matter

LadyLolaRuben · 07/05/2023 12:44

OP contact the GMC and provide them with a copy of your notes. Let them take this on and decide what happens. The nurse needs reporting to the NMC but the GMC can and will do that if she too has a case to answer. The Consultant is overall responsible for the care of a patient, even if they don't see the patient and a nurse and/or junior doctor deliver the care or perform the procedure. Everything comes back to the consultant as being responsible through whats called their governance and risk management framework. Hand this matter over to the GMC and let them take the strain x

LadyLolaRuben · 07/05/2023 12:46

autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:30

I think the light ruins the scan paper as I have it in a frame but maybe I should put it away but that hurts me to

Take it to a photoshop and have a few copies made. Then you can keep a few in a safe place and have a copy to hand without worrying its the only copy and will get damaged x

Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:47

LadyLolaRuben · 07/05/2023 12:46

Take it to a photoshop and have a few copies made. Then you can keep a few in a safe place and have a copy to hand without worrying its the only copy and will get damaged x

Show quote history

I’ll try that as it’s stressing me out that the scan paper is degrading

OP posts:
Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:48

LadyLolaRuben · 07/05/2023 12:44

OP contact the GMC and provide them with a copy of your notes. Let them take this on and decide what happens. The nurse needs reporting to the NMC but the GMC can and will do that if she too has a case to answer. The Consultant is overall responsible for the care of a patient, even if they don't see the patient and a nurse and/or junior doctor deliver the care or perform the procedure. Everything comes back to the consultant as being responsible through whats called their governance and risk management framework. Hand this matter over to the GMC and let them take the strain x

Yes I think I will do that, I just didn’t complain before as didn’t want to waste nhs time and resources I didn’t realise there was another route

OP posts:
CaptainSeven · 07/05/2023 12:55

autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:30

I think the light ruins the scan paper as I have it in a frame but maybe I should put it away but that hurts me to

What ever you do don't scan it with a traditional scanner.

Take a photo of it with your smart phone. There's an app called photomyne that will take a great image and enhance it.

Anewuser · 07/05/2023 13:06

As @CaptainSeven says. Do not photocopy it or laminate it. The scan would have been done on thermal paper and light will degrade it or turn it black.

I’m so sorry you’re suffering and hope you eventually get some closure.

LadyLolaRuben · 07/05/2023 13:11

autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 12:48

Yes I think I will do that, I just didn’t complain before as didn’t want to waste nhs time and resources I didn’t realise there was another route

Show quote history

You are not wasting anyones time. This is the type of complaint the GMC and NHS need to know about.

Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 13:46

I have submitted a concern online to the GMC and attached my medical notes

OP posts:
Minimalme · 07/05/2023 14:02

I am so sorry, how utterly devastating for you.

I don't say this lightly but you could consider consulting a medical law firm.

You had a procedure you didn't consent to under duress and it has caused you emotional distress for your entire adult life.

It shouldn't have happened. It wasn't your fault. Your Mother was abusive and your GP was negligent.

Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 14:12

Minimalme · 07/05/2023 14:02

I am so sorry, how utterly devastating for you.

I don't say this lightly but you could consider consulting a medical law firm.

You had a procedure you didn't consent to under duress and it has caused you emotional distress for your entire adult life.

It shouldn't have happened. It wasn't your fault. Your Mother was abusive and your GP was negligent.

I tried this when I got my notes I called so many places and not one wanted to even touch the case so I gave up in the end . I’m hoping the GMC will be helpful

OP posts:
Boomboom22 · 07/05/2023 14:25

It sounds awful, but are you leaving out the extent of your mh issues prior that might explain why all the medical professionals involved didn't stop this and why solicitors are not getting the same reading we are here? Is your mother a Dr too? As it seems clear cut but can't be ifswim?

Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 14:33

Boomboom22 · 07/05/2023 14:25

It sounds awful, but are you leaving out the extent of your mh issues prior that might explain why all the medical professionals involved didn't stop this and why solicitors are not getting the same reading we are here? Is your mother a Dr too? As it seems clear cut but can't be ifswim?

I was given a diagnosis of depression aged 14 as I was school refusing and generally not happy (it was actually because home life was really hard for me). I was on Prozac for 2 years till 16 and I stopped abruptly (didn’t feel any difference on it so stopping was easy) as my mother has started telling any friends I had not to associate with me as I was on medication for psychiatric reasons .

By 18 I had a full time job and was trying to save to leave home but she was financially abusive too although I was trying to save severity and then i got pregnant

i wasn’t sure if my MH issue had been used against me to give her capacity that was why I started this thread but now I know that wasn’t even possible then. The original gp referral stated I wanted to be pregnant but listed all my issues 14-16 as if they were current when by then I was 18, and the gp had written that basically although I wanted to continue he didn’t think I was emotionally capable and wanted me considered for termination so I do think MH was used but I’m still not sure that was ethical ?

OP posts:
Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 14:33

No my mother is not in the medical profession

OP posts:
Original poster
autonomyagain · 07/05/2023 14:34

*secretly not severity

OP posts:
Fraaahnces · 07/05/2023 14:43

I am so sorry this happened to you. I had a (differently) abusive mother and the mother I am today wants to go back in time, fold you up in my arms and get you the fuck out of there! I know neither of us has a Time Machine, and your mum obviously still thinks she was doing the right thing, but I think until you make a complaint and take control this way, your traumatised young adult is never going to grow up and heal.

Katrinawaves · 07/05/2023 14:50

If it is more than 3 years since you received your medical notes, you will be out of time to take any form of legal action against anyone involved so can put that out of your mind and pursue the GMC complaint instead.

if you so still have a few months left before time runs out, you will need to move quickly to instruct lawyers and issue your claim within the 3 year period. If previous lawyers have been reluctant to take this on, I wonder if that has been because you have been unclear in your instructions to them or because you have a current diagnosed severe mental health problem which they think is relevant. Apologies if this is not the case but the fact that you still have weekly sessions with a counsellor so many years after being diagnosed with childhood depression suggests this may be so.

You could try instructing a barrister under the direct access scheme to give you an opinion as a starting point?

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