How are tits, lips and high heels aspirational for young women?

[Bouncealot]

Just watched The Apprentice on BBC and am following Rise and Fall on C4. Why are all the women styled like this? What does it say to younger women? Is it to signal feminine power? None of the successful young women I know dress this way. The equivalent dress code for men doesn’t bear thinking about, and guess what? We don’t see young men’s chests on display in the office, or even on TV.

@SmileyClare

It isn’t immature. What is immature is look someone up and down when they are pitching infront of you with cameras there. Yes it was a business meeting but it was also a TV show. Not terribly hard to comprehend. I don’t conduct myself like that personally. Like I said, be irritated at the crap products (they were crap!!!) but openly and brazenly looking up and down at someone? Nar, not for me. I thought they came across worse.

Fair enough. I’d probably have to watch that episode again to have an opinion.

Im off shopping now and I will be throwing some make up and hair products in my trolley. Maybe I’m a victim of conditioning as much as we all are 😂

Agree @SmileyClare

I've also seen better pitch presentations of products and ideas from young teenage students. The standard on the Apprentice has been really poor this year.

Personally I thought the pitches were crap, but I am able to conduct myself in a far kinder manner than those Waitrose women. Guess you can’t buy class either.

To be fair I think the waitrose women perfectly epitomised the brand- bit stuck up and miserable hah. Most of the candidates aren't from an office or corporate environment, I don't see the issue with them dressing with some personality to be honest. I don't think it's that unusual for women women come from the hair industry to have fillers and make an effort with their appearance.

The candidates have to work within set confines. The product names are vetted to ensure they dont already exist hence why a lot of them are crap as the good ones have been taken, the colour palletes are selected and we only see the entertaining parts of the pitches- usually the bad bits. Most of them haven't done pitches before.

Love the way that some responses imply that I must be older, don’t have any augmentations, never wear heels; just as judgemental. Separately, in Rise and Fall, Marina immediately started wearing low cut tops, when she rose. Would be interesting to see if Joanna does if she rises.

Let's face it, buyers for Waitrose know their shit. Any judgement is going to be purely on professional merit. It's not like they need to feel jealous or supercilious to a bloody Apprentice wannabe.

@SmileyClare I wouldn't bother. I've made pitches all my life. They've always been won on the merit of the product and the conviction of the product or service.

Which is a good thing as my face looks like I've been dragged screaming though a thorny bush.

But the Waitrose women had also made an effort with their appearance and it wasn't conservatively corporate, in my opinion. They may also have had fillers, for all we know, but if so it was subtle work.

Three of the main Apprentice candidates had a lot of filler, but too much and not well done and why it's so obvious to us.

@hippyroses

So they may have had less filler than the candidates? Who cares, their behaviour was still awful and yeah, not classy. No one is disputing the fact that the Waitrose women weren’t stylish, they were? Why one of them felt the need to be excessively rude by looking the candidates up and down, is anyone’s guess. She really did put herself on a pedestal and it that was more cringeworthy than the candidates pitch.

@Vitriolinsanity

Being ugly is definitely a positive thing sometimes in business. I should imagine you could potentially be taken more seriously. You’re clearly not there to shine, you’re solely there to sell the product which is totally fair enough. I guess it’s an issue if you’re a natural beauty and you try hard to be recognised for your talent, and you could potentially get judged for your good feminine looks.

I once worked with a beautiful lady who tried to “ugly herself down” for business meetings. Hair slapped back with hairspray, boring clothes, zero make up, dark colours. Unfortunately for her it didn’t work as she was still damn right gorgeous. She eventually stopped all the nonsense and reverted back to her usual, gorgeous, glamorous self. Not her issue really if she happened to offend anybody.

Perhaps your comments there are well intentioned @Chilloutsnow but God they’re pretty jarring.

Its fairly obvious that the poster was using self deprecating humour to describe her appearance- no need for ugly comments or telling her she’s “clearly not there (in a business pitch) to shine” what the hell does that even mean?

There are pages of comments on this thread debating the argument raised by the op yet still you seem convinced that other women are jealous if they dare to challenge a stereotype.

You seem to think a woman wearing a dark coloured suit and tying their hair up for a work meeting is “uglying herself down”

Whats ugly about not wearing make up?

You have quite a skewed perspective I think- you’re a victim of (and highly influenced by) social conditioning and misogyny.
All women are I expect but most have some awareness of that.

@SmileyClare

Nope, I said you definitely come across as jealous when you look somebody up and down. Not classy, irrespective of your views on someone else’s appearance. This woman in question was trying to hide her beauty and become invisible hence the dark clothes, slapped back hair, no make up. If that’s you thing, fine but it sure isn’t everybodies. Thankfully she embraced her beauty and individuality again. Whilst I appreciate the lips and the filler has become a uniform to some
women, fashion has always been that way to an extent. It’s just that aesthetics etc have come along way. I suspect thin lips will be “in” again soon. Yay for me!! I’m certainly no victim but nice try and great Mumsnet bingo there 😜.

Ok I doubt I’m going to change your rigid views. It’s what I think. It’s a counter argument. I agree women shouldn’t have to hide, that’s not what I was suggesting for a minute.

There are plenty of highly successful women of all shapes, sizes, some beautiful, some who love fashion or dress in their individual style. Looks are not relevant to success in business are they?

Is raising the issue of social conditioning and misogyny on threads like these “MN bingo” or is it continually repeated because it’s relevant?

Youre deviating from the point. Subscribing to the identi kit sexualised style showcased by The Apprentice and similar isn’t “women embracing their beauty or individuality” at all.

And you steadfastly refuse to believe you’re a victim of social conditioning yet can’t wait for thin lips to be in fashion again, so you feel better about yourself?

I mean bless you but you must see the irony? 😂

@SmileyClare

Clearly the sarcasm was missed on you 😂. Personally if I was you I would stop labelling others victims (please pray for me 🙏 ) and reflect on why women enjoying beauty, fashion etc etc makes you incredibly angry?? I mean there are women who certainly are victims of conditioning when they mutilate themselves excessively, but dumping everyone in that bracket is just …. a bit silly.

And who said I subscribed? I came on here stating the behaviour of those on the Waitrose panel was not cool, or terribly progressive either. Looking someone up and down says more about the person doing it.

I am leaving this thread now because I’m actually not terribly over invested in it. I haven’t got the fire in me to keep making the same point over and over and yeah, it doesn’t get me fired up like perhaps another thread where I was genuinely interested in the content.

I think you’ve got me all wrong. I love clothes and make up as much as anyone.

I’ve been looking at this thread while blow drying and straightening my hair. I’m well aware I’m a product of social conditioning!

I’m not angry at women for enjoying fashion or beauty. I’m not jealous or bitchy if I question the stereotype promoted on a show, I’m not saying these things because I’m angry or jealous.

Look you make some good points about respecting women’s choices. I agree with you there.

I dont know that they had filler at all. If they had it was subtle.

I didn't notice any looking up and down of the candidates (I'm not saying they didn't, it's just something I must have missed), they just seemed irritated by the poor product and pitch.