Would you move? DH and I have different views...

[BackyardDreamer]

Hi MNers, I'm hoping for someone to give me some perspective on the age old, to move or not to move question! It's long so you have all the detail you need, hopefully.

We're a family of 4 (preschool age and under) living in a 3rd floor flat in a pricey mid-sized Australian city. Our local property market is staying flat/slumping a tiny bit, so I'm considering whether now would be a good time to move to a house. DH is reluctant to move, so would take some persuading.

Current flat pros

• The flat is really nice (relatively modern inside, all electric, well insulated, we never hear the neighbours, ensuite, eat-in counter in kitchen, two basement car parks and small storage cage).
• It's in a great area (really bright and open, nice views for now, the complex has a couple of large grassy spaces for kids to play, safe neighbourhood with great primary schools, albeit a 20 min walk away, and several miles from the high schools). We're a 15 min drive from work and the city centre.

Current flat cons

• No backyard, and balcony is rarely used with the young kids.
• One of the bedrooms has a high window and no built-in wardrobes (the norm here) so it would do as a bedroom, but isn't brilliant.
• The complex also is up for a hefty repair bill for roofing and balcony works (estimated at 10k GBP per flat, and it is being contested by some owners. I've been living with mould in one ceiling for 18m, and now a cut out of the roof covered with plywood. Potentially it will be 18m until repaired.)
• The open fields next door will probably be built on, starting sometime in the next 5 years.
• Very limited storage... two built in wardrobes and the narrowest pantry you've probably seen.

Alternative house pros and cons
The types of houses we could afford would be a 1980s to 2000s-built house of around 1,100 sq ft on a ~5,000 sq ft block. It'd be 3 beds, 1 bathroom, and if lucky, there might be a double garage or second bathroom). It'd be around the same sq footage as our current place, and most likely older.

Public transport would be about the same, and we could probably get closer to a school and a secondary sized shopping centre, but twice as far from the city centre.

I'm open to only considering low maintenance houses and backyards that are close to good schools and small local shops, but there's little I can do about the mortgage doubling and commute time (except there's a chance DH would be able to transfer to a workplace closer to home, and I can wfh 2 days).

My view
I want to move to a house because I can't see us living in a flat as the kids get older. I feel like we go out a lot on the weekend because I don't like the kids being inside all day. I want a backyard so they can play outside - water play in summer, trampolines, home birthday parties etc - and the option to grow some veggies, install solar panels, relax outside while the kids play, and have bbqs with friends outside (we do this every couple of months, but we would do it so our friends with the biggest house can have a break from hosting!). DH could do with an area for his gym equipment (right now he's taken over the third bedroom).

Moving now vs later
The reason I want to look into this now is the price of houses feels within reach, but house price increases will outpace what we can save once interest rates start going down. Being completely honest, neither of us have help in any sense from our families, so I would like to have enough equity and capital appreciation so we can downsize when the kids move out and fund retirement or help them get started.

We can port our very low rate mortgage for the next two years, but we'd need to double the mortgage, and the remainder would be at current rates. I think things would be tight for the first few years (as in, not as tight as mat leave, definitely no expensive holidays or gadgets, minimal savings, but all bills met and a bit leftover to save or spend. I'm in a very stable job and promotion is likely on the cards in the next year or two, with regular pay increases from there).

I'd also like to get out now because I think it would be harder to sell while there are building works in the complex, or when that's finished, when next door is being built up.

Lastly, we would need to sell first and buy after, because of the portability rules and our risk appetites. It seems much easier to do this in a slower market.

DH's view
Doesn't want to leave the safe neighbourhood, excellent primary school, or close location to the city/work. He likes having two bathrooms. Any new place would be doubling our commute time. He thinks flat is big enough for us, and he doesn't want to fix up an older place or spend more time on yardwork or cleaning. He'd rather have extra cash than a bigger mortgage. The older the kids get, the less likely they are to appreciate outside space.

His preferred option is staying put, or failing that, asking our ground floor neighbour if he'd be open to selling us his flat (identical to ours), to get some outside space (~800 sq ft, half patio, half grass).

I think the halfway option would buy us time, but would be the best and worst of all worlds - small yard and no ability to make changes (eg adding solar or extensions), and all the worst of the common charges and renovation work.

WWYD? Thanks for any views!

Sorry for the weird formatting there!

It sounds to me like moving would be a good option although you’re in Australia and outside space equals spiders….eek

Ask your DH if he will view a few properties before making a decision on it. I bet he will start to picture himself in his own garden and appreciating the idea of your own space outside.

I think I'd definitely want the house and the benefits it offers like own garage, outside space that your children could safely play in while you're busy indoors or, like you said, being in the garden yourself!
If you had a drive/parking space in front of the garage you could turn that into a gym in the future, or office.
You could possibly build an extra bathroom further down the line, thus adding to the value of the house!
Your own garden means you have who you want there, not neighbours who you may not get on with.
You can still look near to where you are as you might just find a little gem!
Good luck!!

If you can afford the bigger mortgage then it is a good time to stretch yourself financially, or you could end up wasting that extra cash and never getting the bigger house. Surely you need to prioritise outdoor living , especially in your climate

For me it would depend on the doubling

So commute going from 10 mins to 20, yes; 30 mins to an hour, no

Mortgage going from 15% of your income to 30, yes; 25% to 50, no

It seems a high ask for no more bedrooms and losing a bathroom to gain a garden

Your own outside space is great, but how much further would you be from your friends, kids friends who you want to use it with. Would they have to change nursery?

Don’t move - double the mortgage and double commute sounds like a nightmare! A few BBQs and running around can be done at your local park.

I'm not surprised he thinks you have enough space since he takes up 50% of the bedroom space instead of 25% with having his gym in the third bedroom and sleeping in yours.

I think moving downstairs would be the best compromise, but how likely is it that the downstairs neighbour even wants to move?

If that is a no-go then moving to a house would be the best situation, either now, or after you have got your promotion and salary increase. Is it possible that one of you can get a job to do from home? That way the commuting wouldn't be a problem. However, I don't see commuting for 30-45 minutes being particularly extensive anyway. Pretty normal in many parts of the world.

It’s so nuanced and complex to in reality but based on what you’ve written I’m slightly more with your DH here I think.

whats the increase in commute?

could you upsize and get a slightly bigger flat with outdoor space in same location?

I would be looking to improve my situation in the same location. Surely with double the mortgage you should get more than your current place. An extra bedroom or just more living space. The outdoor space is not essential although I imagine it is much more useful in Australia than it is here in UK!

I would set up some viewings locally with different space but still a flat and then the house options you could afford.
With young children if you can afford it outdoor space is such a help.
We spent hours playing with little sandpit and water play and pop up tents and things in our garden.
When they get older and friends come to play would it drive you mad in the flat.

You will get a lot of very pro house responses here because living in a flat with a family is not seen as desirable in the UK.

I live in a part of France where most people live in apartments. We have a three bedroom flat and like you, we would need a much bigger budget to afford a house in our area as space is at such a premium. When we move it will most likely be to a house in a cheaper area because the transaction costs are so high here that it would cost us around €150-200k just to get a bigger apartment with an extra bedroom. If that wasn't the case, I would be tempted to stay in the area and get a bigger apartment rather than move further away and get a house.

What strikes me about your situation is that you say you would be doubling your mortgage for a house which is no bigger than your current apartment, and in an area which is less convenient for work/city entertainment. For me personally, having private outside space wouldn't be worth the extra debt and commuting time. It would only be worth it if our indoor living space was much bigger. But then, I live in northern Europe and you live in Australia, so I get why you might prioritise outdoor space over indoor space.

So, like your husband, I'm not sold on the house idea. But like you, I think it's usually a good idea to take a step up the property ladder while you can, or risk being priced out.

What I would do in your situation is decide what your budget is, taking into account transaction costs, and visit lots of different places. Visit houses in your preferred locations, and bigger apartments in his. Look at older properties, newer properties, properties in need of renovation (you'd need to save some of your budget to do the work if you go down that route) and see if anything jumps out at you.

We prioritised indoor floor space and number of bedrooms, and ended up buying a renovation job. It was very disruptive while the work was being done, but it enabled us to get a bigger property than we otherwise would have been able to afford, it's all done to our taste, and because we have a relatively small mortgage compared to what the property is worth now (around 50% LTV by my estimation) we aren't overstretched and will have a large deposit if and when we move again.

@Shoxfordian funnily enough I removed a huge spider from the flat today… that’s rare but inevitable no matter where we live!

@Velvian that’s a great idea. And also that gives me the chance to see if I prefer his third option after all.

@IMarchToADifferentDrummer it sounds so nice when you describe it like that! It’s really what I’m hoping for. There’s zero chance that we’d be able to find that where we are now though. A house would easily be 50-100% more than our max budget.

@Quitelikeacatslife I appreciate the vote of confidence that now wouldn’t be the worst time ever to buy. It feels like every day there’s a new article speculating about whether there will be a recession, how long interest rates will go up for etc.Knullrufs can I ask why you’d be team DH? (Promise to relay all views, not just the ones favouring moving! 😆)

@jackstini we’re probably in the middle of your figures, which makes it a harder call. I do a 15m drive, childcare drop off, then a 10m bike ride along a beautiful lake. Door to door it’s about 45m. New house would probably be a 25-45m drive depending on traffic, maybe a bit longer if I parked further away and cycled the last stretch to save on parking. Plus drop off… so it’s variable and hard to narrow down, but maybe up to an hour door to door.

Also the doubling would be from 24% to 36% of our take home income right now. I know that doesn’t look like double, it’s just that fixed loan has 20 years left and the variable one would be 30 years.

We’d be be the same or closer to all of our friends.

@CrazyEgg that makes sense but it’s such an effort to get everybody out and I miss the spontaneity of being outside. I’ve given this flat a red hot go, waddling upstairs heavily pregnant and carrying my toddler, and carrying a toddler, baby and shopping upstairs for years. Now I just want us to be able to pop in and out easily!

@Snoken hahaha so true about him having the space he needs! God I’d love to exile the rowing machine to a garage ;) I’m open to investigating with the neighbour but deep down hope he says no!

I can work from home 2 days a week, which is a good balance for me. In some of the suburbs I’m looking at, DH could end up really close to home (like a 10m bike ride), or he could be commuting to the city 5 days.

@DottyDalmation probably not, unfortunately. Our flat seems to be the biggest type around. Beyond that, there are townhouses with minimal outdoor space, or large houses that we would need a lottery win to afford.

@Firefly2023 we fortunately bought our flat when it was a good amount cheaper, and it would take quadruple the mortgage, extremely unscrupulous lending and probably an illegally lucrative side hustle to get us into even a small house in our suburb 😆

@ilovebagpuss thanks for the support for the outdoor space! We have friends with older kids, and seeing the older primary kids makes me really want the backyard. The early high school aged kids though just want good wifi…!

@RosaBonheur love to hear a European perspective. Australia has quite a strong “your home is your castle” mentality. I do like flats but moreso when the city is designed for higher density, and when most people live the same way.

I think that you’re right, there’s no substitute for getting out there and going to open homes! I wish there was more on the market.

I second going to look at houses. Your DH might be able to imagine the new life then.
Otherwise it's just thoughts in your head and a competition over who is 'right' or wrong.

I love a property post with links, but will ask for this to be taken down later for privacy!

Neighbour’s flat

The types of houses we could afford

Love this, probably won’t see a ton of capital growth though

Great house but also farthest from city

Normal neighbourhood, good space

The flat looks like the best option but house no 2 is lovely and much cheaper than the comparable ones. I’d be reclaiming the spare room whatever you choose, he can go to the gym like everyone else.

If you have two kids and three bedrooms, then your DH is missing the fact that as they get bigger one child will move into his gym room. To balance that, though, you're forgetting that as the kids grow you'll feel much more able to use the balcony. When I had kamikaze toddlers a balcony would have sounded dangerous, but now the youngest is 8 and it's a different story.

@Blossomtoes can I ask what would swing it for you for the flat?

@TooExtraImmatureCheddar ha! That's true about older kids being fine there, but I still don't know what older kids would even do with a 100sq ft balcony, beyond maybe bbq and eat dinner there. No ball games, water fights etc...

Only one bathroom for a family would be a deal-breaker for me, so I'm with your DH on that one. I'm just not sure what you're going to get with the houses over the flat? And you lose that nice commute - so I'm not convinced about the sense in moving. If you want to own a house rather than a flat, then okay, but I just don't see what you gain really - all I see is losses (bathroom, convenience of current location).

When we bought our house I wanted a driveway (we had on street parking before, which I hated), a utility room, a room that could be a playroom so the kids' toys weren't all over the living room, an en-suite to the master and a downstairs loo. All of those things were 'gains' for us, so moving to a house with those things gave us a net gain. I just don't see the net gain in what you're proposing.

You do need to realistically think about how much you would use the garden and for how many years would it be paddling pools and what not.

However to stay in the flat I would be reclaiming the bedroom so the children have one each as the compromise for no garden.

we have two toilets but honestly we don’t use the downstairs one and there’s five of us. If you had a garage though you could always add a small toilet with gym space and block off the actual garage door.

We Brit’s do tend to hate flats but then again I think that’s because here they are soooo poorly built with barely a seat size balcony if you are lucky and a gravel communal washing line area with looks poop.

Stay in the flat.

The increase in repayment will hinder any activity your will want to do with the dcs.
The increase in commuting time will eat away any time at home to be relaxed with the dcs.
Id also actually check how much time children actually spend playing in a garden. mine did a lot but they were unusual tbh. And it was a godsend when they were toddlers but not once they were over 7~8yo.

Also I wouldn’t count in interest rates decreasing. I mean you might have a more clued up prime minister but here they are planning for interest rate to be around 4% in the coming year…. No decrease planned.

Blossomtoes can I ask what would swing it for you for the flat?

All the advantages you list for your current place, plus outside space. And I’ve seen your views, I’d kill for those. But get your third bedroom back whatever you do. It’s totally wasted at the moment.

My contribution is that gardens are work!!

The downstairs flat would be good. Once they get to 8ish most gardens become too small for a kick around and they are better off going to a large park.

For a second bathroom, I would move. Having had a stomach bug in the house with 3 children I could never contemplate one!

Large outdoor space wouldn't be a deal breaker though. So long as you have decent parks that are walking distance and a space big enough for a BBQ and table. I would try to limit your commute time extending too much.

If you're in no real rush keep looking and viewing x