'Gentiles'

[Dilbertian]

Today I was chatting with a small group of people and we got onto the subject of how different faiths view various things. I was the only Jewish person in the group. One of the others kept referring to himself, and to non-Jewish people in general, as 'a gentile'/'gentiles', but only within the context of Jewish ways, not of any other faith's ways.

It made me a bit uncomfortable. I would never use that expression. I would say non- or not Jewish, just as I would say non- or not Muslim. I don't think 'gentile' is offensive, so I'm not sure why I'm bothered by it.

Would you use 'gentile' to refer to non-Jews? Would you use it to refer to people who are not of any other religion?

Historical note: it's the word that was used in the standard Latin Bible to translate "the nations" in both Hebrew texts and Greek ones (from 'gens' = people). Like some other Latinate words used in Christianity, it has somehow survived into modern translations.

So it is a Latin translation of the Hebrew word 'goyim', which IIRC in the KJV is translated as 'nations'.

From this thread so far, it seems that religious Christians and Jews might use it in reference to non-Jews, though not specifically in reference to Christians. Certainly Jews do not use it among thmselves. We would say non-Jews or goyim.

Agreed. It does seem a bit odd to use it to mean all non-Jews. As PP have said, when the word appears in Christian writings (and it does, a lot) it's in the context of the debate between James and Paul (and their followers) about whether Christians had to be Jewish or could come from non-Jewish backgrounds. At the time that meant 'classical pagan' religions, so extending it to include e.g. Islam seems really strange to me. (The history of the word 'pagan' is just as confusing...)

I hear it regularly but very specifically in the words of the nunc dimittis (Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word. For mine eyes have seen thy salvation; Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; To be a light to lighten the Gentiles and to be the glory of thy people Israel). So I guess it's mainly likely to be used by Christians and mainly in a historical or liturgical context. Bit odd to use conversationally in a modern context though.

At the time it didn’t include Islam as Islam didn’t exist. But my understanding of the term refers to not of the Jewish race rather than religion.

I think I was trying to say that (to answer the OP's original question), I would only use 'gentile' in the context of that debate, so making the distinction between 'people who have been raised as Jews' and 'people who have been raised following the Greek/Roman/Egyptian/etc pantheon' which were the main two groups that were relevant at the time. (It's more complex as there were also people in the latter group who attended Pharasaic synagogue worship throughout the Roman world, and followed (some) Jewish commandments, without actually being Jewish, and that's where a lot of early Christian recruitment was centred.) I would find it odd to use it to describe groups today.

Purely out of interest, I've had a little look and in the KJV translations from Hebrew texts, 'goyim' is translated as 'nations' in some places and 'gentiles' in others. (The Greek is 'ethnoi' as in 'ethnic,' both in early Christian writings and in the standard Greek translations of the Tanakh.)

Was his only experience of Jewish people, in the context of RE lessons about the Bible? That's the only real context I'd think of it, and perhaps why he was using it.

I think I'd find it othering, if I were you. Like he's defining himself and the others as different from you.

I'm a Jew. We use the word but, really, only when we are talking together about someone outside our faith, so not in general discussion. Mormons (LDS) also refer to non-Mormons as gentiles.

@picklemewalnuts Or perhaps he vaguely misremembered that Jews have a special word for non-Jews, "gentiles," and thought that he was being respectful by using it?

Yes, but if it made OP a bit uncomfortable, that could be why.

I keep getting flashes of Jim, from Friday Night Dinners. 'Shaloooommmm!'

I think you're both right.

Hearing people referred to as “Jews” always sounds off to me. I would say “Jewish people “ We all would back home. I would never refer to “Blacks” or “Jews” or “whites” or “Muslims”. They would all be “people” with an adjective if necessary, eg “black people.”

But would you say "Christians" or "Catholics", or do you always include the word "people" there too? Not having a go, I'm just interested. Personally, I agree with what you say and would say "Catholics" and "Christians" but I'm trying to figure out why. Maybe because I am Catholic in a(n officially) Christian country so I know I'm not being offensive to or othering myself?!

Sorry for the hijack, OP. I've just only ever heard the term "gentile" in hymns or religious texts so it would feel jarring to me to hear it outside those contexts. But I'm not Jewish, so I'm not sure I'm the right person to decide.

Calling us "Jews" is not in any way offensive or incorrect. As Jemima says, it's just like calling them "Catholics" or "Christians." You wouldn't say Catholic people or Christian people, so why feel compelled to call us Jewish people? We're Jews. It's the appropriate way to use the word.

I went to a huge family Rosh Hashanah dinner (I’m not Jewish) and the grandpa said “aha! A GENTILE!” And rubbed his hands together in what appeared to be delight. I don’t think it’s offensive is it?! I enjoyed the whole thing so much - he definitely didn’t mean to be rude. He’s an Israeli Jew and their children were all brought up in the UK.

Am always a little bemused when non-Jews use Yiddish words too.

'English' is such a mixture of so many phrases from so many languages, is natural that Yiddish is one of them. Even glitch may be from the Yiddish. Schmalz and klutz are too I think. In fact I think there's more Yiddish origin words in general use in English than Gaelic. The only one I know that is is galore.

In somewhere like NY, there are many more Yiddish words in common usage of course. I like that language travels around.

I completely agree with you. But I think that this is the reason why (I'm cutting and pasting from Wikipedia, which is quoting the American Heritage Dictionary but I think also applies to many Brits:

"It is widely recognized that the attributive use of the noun 'Jew,' in phrases such as 'Jew lawyer' or 'Jew ethics,' is both vulgar and highly offensive. In such contexts 'Jewish' is the only acceptable possibility. Some people, however, have become so wary of this construction that they have extended the stigma to any use of 'Jew' as a noun, a practice that carries risks of its own. In a sentence such as 'There are now several Jews on the council,' which is unobjectionable, the substitution of a circumlocution like 'Jewish people' or 'persons of Jewish background' may in itself cause offense for seeming to imply that 'Jew' has a negative connotation when used as a noun."

Thing is, in the NT all religions that do not worship the one true God in the acceptable way (pre-Jesus this was through Judaism, after him it was through reconciliation to God through his once-for-all sacrificial death) are considered "pagans". Nowadays, this would extend to those who follow religions like Islam. Basically, a pagan, in the Bible, is anyone who worships anything/one other than the God of the Bible.

The English language has umpteen words from many different languages incorporated within it.

Am always a little bemused when non-Jews use Yiddish words too.

Why? Some of the ones in common usage I wouldn't be surprised if half the time people didn't even realise they were Yiddish.

I agree with this - as a child I didn’t know that schlep and schvitz were Yiddish.

And?

Yiddish is a language spoken by few - not even all Jews speak it. Yes, some words are very much in the mainstream - chutzpah, for example, that's fine because for the most part, they tend to be used in the correct context. I am not talking about this - I should have been more specific.

I know I most certainly wouldn't dream of dropping a little Jamaican patois (for example) into my every day vernacular, so am surprised that some non-Jews who know nothing of the correct context or even pronunciation would do the same with Yiddish words. That's all.

But, this is a whole other topic.

I'm still thinking about the word "gentile." (I love words, etymologies, and also the history of religions, so this thread has made me think a lot,) I had a look at a Jewish translation of the Tanakh into English rather than a Christian one (on the Chabad website), and it uses "gentile" a lot! I'm not quite sure what that adds to the original question, but I found it interesting.

I’m not Jewish but I attended a Jewish school. We (non-Jews) were frequently referred to as gentiles by Jewish teachers and pupils and therefore freely used the word ourselves to talk about ourselves and others.

@coconotgrove The Yiddish word that I have run into on these boards is "schtum." I live in the US and have been a Jew (see what I did there?) for all of my 68 years and had never heard that word before, although I understood what it meant by context.

Personally, if someone referred to me as goyim I would be offended.

I put it on a par with the Japanese gaigin, or the use of yid by a non Jewish person.