Prue Leith and Assisted Dying.

[Jaichangecentfoisdenom]

I happened on this discussion earlier today, on LBC:www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/david-lammy/prue-leith-makes-case-for-assisted-dying/ I've made it clear to my family that when the time comes, if I'm suffering from a terminal illness, I'm off to Dignitas in Switzerland - but I'm lucky, we can afford it. Religious reasons aside, what would you want for family and yourself?

My mam is very elderly and we care for her in her own home. She still has her mental facilities thank goodness, but she has almost no quality of life any more. For the last 10 years she has had poor mobility with arthritic pain, is in heart and kidney failure, and is on a lot of medication that needs to be regularly tweaked to ensure one pill or the other doesn't make her worse. She shuffles from her bed to her chair to the bathroom, barely eats, is obsessed with her bowels due to chronic constipation. She can't read any more as her eyes have got so bad, and can't really watch tv as she is is almost deaf. This is a fiercely intelligent woman who raised a huge family, travelled, and took a great interest in the world, reduced to this. She has already outlived one of her sons which broke her heart, if she goes on much longer she will outlive another. At some point she will no longer be able to shuffle around, and will be bedbound. If she could take a pill and end her life peacefully on her own terms she absolutely would. I think that should be available to her. We are lucky there is enough of us to care for her at home and we will never be ready to lose her, but this is not living, it's a living death.

That is heartbreaking @Deadringer - I fully agree. If your DM has full mental capacity and is clear she is done it would be so much better if she could die peacefully and predictably. I really hope our society starts the necessary dialogues and laws as soon as possible. Medicine has moved on so much, pharmaceutical companies love chronic diseases and keeping people alive past their best. It is time we talk about the morality of that and choice.
However, imagine the outrage if a pharma company came up with a tablet form cocktail of easy slow death. It would have to be very heavily regulated.

And she is 'lucky' Aleaiactaest she still has her marbles and people to care for her. I feel that there there should be a pill readily available for suitable candidates. But you are right, it would be a very difficult thing to regulate.
I will be saving up sleeping pills or something when I get old for when I feel the time is right.

I don't want assisted dying. I think it would be a slippery slope. I don't think ill of those who advocate it, and I realise it will bring suffering to some in their final days and to their loved ones. Much more focus on palliative care and pain relief is what I would like.

I'm currently planning this for myself at the moment (I have one of the "worse" types of the condition that I daren't mention because it annoys some people too much, seemingly). I'm trying to involve my partner in this as little as possible so that they don't risk arrest for "assisting a suicide", which doesn't make it easier. It also means that I will have to make the decision whilst I still have some sort of reasonable mobility, so that I can travel alone - which means going earlier than really necessary. I won't be engaging with this thread or even reading any other posts - I find it all a bit difficult tbh.

@Flowersintheattic57 you are very lucky to be able to access Fentanyl.. I assume you are not in the UK?

I'm a supporter of assisted dying. I can only hope this is introduced in the UK. My original plan was to go to Dignitas.. but it's not only very expensive, it's a very complicated process which I just can't see myself having the ability to deal with if I'm already unwell. I weighed it all up and decided I'll take matters into my own hands, when I'm ready. That way I get to leave in the comfort of my own home. But I urge anyone thinking the same to do your research, because suicide is not easy, not guaranteed, is significantly risky.. Hopefully by the time I'm old assisted dying will be an option here

A relative with an extremely painful form of cancer was prescribed Fentanyl in the UK. This was a handful of years ago now, though.

I thought you could travel to the NL to the end of life clinic, but it turns out you can't, you have pretty well live here though not necessarily a citizen.

If anyone's interested in how it works, this is the english-language site

expertisecentrumeuthanasie.nl/en/

This is a fiercely intelligent woman who raised a huge family, travelled, and took a great interest in the world, reduced to this.

Same with my mother (except there were 3 children rather than a huge family). Seeing my intelligent, empathetic and capable mother decline was the saddest thing for us siblings and I dread this happening to me.
Re fentanyl, I would love to have some but I have no idea where to go about getting it. Also, if one had dementia one wouldn’t probably be in a state to find it and take it.

Dementia is not going from being normal to having no logical thought processes over night. There is a steady decline. You will absolutely know you have dementia and able to kill yourself.

The facts are most people do not. Because you can have many good years of life with dementia.

Dementia is not going from being normal to having no logical thought processes over night. There is a steady decline. You will absolutely know you have dementia and able to kill yourself.

It's not always a steady decline. It can go very quickly. My Grandmother was very distressed and knew that something was wrong and that she didn't want to be here because she was suffering so much but she had no idea that she had dementia.

Another relative "passed" a dementia test on the Friday, in spite of it being obvious that they'd been having some trouble for a few months but to the nurse, who didn't know them, they presented as normal, they we had a nonsensical phone call that night that made it clear how ill they were. Monday they were so bad that they were admitted to hospital. They went from a hospital to rehabilitation to a nursing home and never saw their home again. They didn't and still don't know that they had dementia.

It can go incredibly fast. It was only 2 weeks between my Grandmother knowing me and trusting me to having absolutely no idea who I was. She went downhill so fast in that time.

I am sorry it was so fast.
But most people are diagnosed in memory clinics. So it does depend what kind of memory test was conducted.

I am sorry it was so fast.
But most people are diagnosed in memory clinics. So it does depend what kind of memory test was conducted.

It was completed at home by a dementia specialist nurse.

You will absolutely know you have dementia and able to kill yourself.

They aren't the only ones I've known who have had no idea that they had dementia either so your statement above is far from being a fact.

Another relative "passed" a dementia test on the Friday, in spite of it being obvious that they'd been having some trouble for a few months but to the nurse, who didn't know them, they presented as normal, they we had a nonsensical phone call that night that made it clear how ill they were.

This. I remember when my mother was in the early stages a friend rang me to say he’d spoken to my mother and she was absolutely fine. “Okay” I said, once I’d recovered from my irritation of someone who hadn’t seen her for 6 months telling me about my mother’s state of health. ‘Come and spend a couple of days and then see what you think”.

I thought they worked with people with dementia?
Because when people start having difficulties there can be a range of reasons, including other physical issues. So in the first instance GPs are supposed to do various tests such as blood and urine and make a referral if they think it might be dementia. But the referral would normally be to a memory clinic or specialist.
I can see a dementia nurse might visit while waiting for the referral appointment if they are pretty sure it is dementia.

But most people with dementia not diagnosed are clearly showing signs but not willing to face up to it. I have seen this up close with a relative clearly showing signs. Both him and his wife would not consider that he may have dementia. He carried on like that for about 4 years and then died of something else. It is supposed to take an average of the first symptoms appearing to people going to their GP, because they are frightened of the diagnosis.

@Andante57 That is normal with dementia before it has progressed badly. Especially if people are in their usual routines they can seem fine for a long time to people round about even if those close to them know that is not the case.

I can see a dementia nurse might visit while waiting for the referral appointment if they are pretty sure it is dementia.

Like everything else they're fallible. And no they weren't entirely confident that it was, though we were. I'm not blaming the nurse btw. It's amazing how dementia can be masked. The Selfish Pig's guide to Caring covers this perfectly though the author was caring for someone with Huntington's disease but I think so many carers experience the same thing. If the person you are caring for can barely walk ten feet on a good day, you can guarantee that when the person assessing them comes that they'll be doing cartwheels around the house. It's just the way it seems to work.

Assessments at home for dementia are the norm in my area(East Dunbartonshire) or seem to be. At least that was the case for both of my relatives who lived/live in the same county and for that I'm very grateful. I had more than enough to be doing without having to fight to get them out the door and trying to get them into Glasgow to go to the Memory Clinic there.

My heartfelt opinion is that as knotty and challenging as assisted dying is in practice, the sooner we get the societal and legal framework in place for it, the better.

A PP mentioned the Hippocratic Oath, but of course Hippocrates had none of the arsenal of modern medical tools with which life can be extended. I'd argue that "first do no harm" is hard to reconcile with endlessly prolonging the existence of someone who is suffering and wishing for a speedy, rather than drawn out, death.

I'm mindful of what you hear on the pet boards all the time regarding loved animals being PTS: "better a day too soon that a moment too late".

I understand that it's much more emotionally and morally loaded for humans, of course. But when all is said and done, my late dog had a far better, kinder death than my mum did. And that MUST be wrong.

We need Dignitas over here, ASAP.

Also my relative who passed the dementia test had approximately 5000 tests during the 2 1/2 weeks they spent in hospital. They had no infections or any other conditions that caused such a rapid decline. It just happens that way sometimes.

This. I remember when my mother was in the early stages a friend rang me to say he’d spoken to my mother and she was absolutely fine. “Okay” I said, once I’d recovered from my irritation of someone who hadn’t seen her for 6 months telling me about my mother’s state of health. ‘Come and spend a couple of days and then see what you think”.

It's funny how many people who don't live with the person or situation seem to know better than we do, or so they think. Sympathies. I know how those comments make an already incredibly hard job even more difficult.

Well said @WoolyMammoth55

👏🏻

Same for my mother a decade ago. Shocking. Also, there was this thing at the time whereby she could have been hurting herself accidentally, or doing dangerous things which might kill her, and as long as she told the health professionals she was fine, they had to accept that, despite all evidence to the contrary. Does that still happen?