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Original poster

Put parents in a home

103 replies

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 11:12

This advice is often given on mumsnet and drives me mad. You can not put an adult in a home unless they are assessed as having no capacity to make that decision. It does not matter if you have power of attorney. An adult can decide if they want to go into a home or not. And that includes making decisions that are against their own best interests. They may have a better life in a home and be better cared for, but if they do not want to go, that is their decision.

Similarly family can not just decide the state will pay for a relatives residential home because they think they need to be in one and do not have enough money to pay privately. A care assessment is carried out and a decision made about whether the person needs the level of care given in a home or is fine at home with carers. You can challenge this decision of course. But if your relative is assessed as not needing a care home then the state will not pay for it.

Most people without dementia are at home with carers popping in. If someone needs getting out of bed, washed, dressed, food given and toileting, then carers visiting their home is usually what will be recommended.

Of course many people persuade a reluctant parent to go into a care home. But they still have to agree however reluctantly.

OP posts:
Princessglittery · 02/02/2023 11:26

You are correct no one can be forced/made to go in a home.

Equally no one can be forced to voluntarily provide care for someone who won’t face reality that they are no longer able to care for themselves.

KangarooKenny · 02/02/2023 11:39

They can be forced into a home by the court, but that rarely happens.
A home is usually recommended if the person needs care in the night.

TightFistedWozerk · 02/02/2023 11:40

Princessglittery · 02/02/2023 11:26

You are correct no one can be forced/made to go in a home.

Equally no one can be forced to voluntarily provide care for someone who won’t face reality that they are no longer able to care for themselves.

Yes, indeed. If anyone reading this is feeling that they need to step back because the person they care for has needs that they cannot now meet, please do step back - alerting the relevant authorities that you intend stepping back is considerate.

I would like to add here that the number of visits per day can inform whether a move to a home would be best for the person. In my area x4 visits a day = keep the person at home, all things being equal. However x5 visits a day = a very strong indicator that a home or 24 hour carers is needed. Remember that an adult child popping in to supplement paid carers slots counts as a visit.

Those who say just put them in a home are talking pish. I don't see it often on MN, tbh, but that might be my topic selection settings.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Care homes Dementia & alzheimer's
TightFistedWozerk · 02/02/2023 11:41

I take the point about DOLS.

CaptainMyCaptain · 02/02/2023 11:47

You are right. I hate that phrase. If you come to a considered decision that your elderly relative has care needs which you cannot meet then that is nothing to be ashamed of. Even then you have to get their agreement if they have capacity and then find a setting that meets their needs. It is never as easy as 'putting them in a home'.

Original poster
AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 11:58

And capacity means some people would rather live at home and eat for example snacks rather than decent food and risk fatal falls. These decisions are always a balancing act.

OP posts:
Soothsayer1 · 02/02/2023 12:26

Very true!

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 02/02/2023 12:27

The trouble arises when someone who can’t even begin to care for themselves adequately, stubbornly refuses to go into a home, and relies on a relative - so often a daughter - who is now exhausted with trying to care.

Even when someone has lost capacity because of dementia, and is self funded, the whole process of finding a suitable care home and moving them, may often be exceedingly fraught.

We’ve been there twice (DM and FiL) once they were no longer safe to be left alone for even half an hour.
I would never want to go through all that again. And people who have never lived with dementia, who oh so piously say they’d never put a parent in a care home, make me bloody livid!

Original poster
AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 12:33

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER But you can refuse to provide care and if they are unsafe just call an ambulance. I know it is not easy. But people can refuse care and family can refuse to provide care.
And I have been here. We had to say to father in law we would no longer come round to help as he refused carers. We gave him lots of notice and then literally refused to go round when he called. He gave in and agreed we could organise carers to come in within 24 hours. If he had carried on without carers that would have been his choice.
Lots of people live in inadequate situations.

OP posts:
TonTonMacoute · 02/02/2023 12:36

I agree OP, if only it was that simple.

My MIL had Alzheimer's and dementia and was physically in poor health but refused to go into a home, although I think that in a good home she would have been far happier, far less lonely and miserable and far better looked after if she had. There are several excellent homes near us which looked lovely, and she could easily have afforded it.

However, adult social care assessed her and insisted that she could manage at home with carers visiting 3 times a day, however she hated this too - 'I don't want people coming in fussing all the time'.

It wasn't until her third fall, which resulted in her spending all night on the floor, that they finally accepted that she lacked capacity to understand her care needs, but it didn't matter by then because she was so weakened by this she was dead within 3 months.

The thought of forcing people is horrible, but my MIL had an utterly horrible final year to her life that I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Original poster
AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 12:40

@TonTonMacoute I am so sorry to hear that.

I do understand your MILs views though. The issue is that as you get older you inevitably end up visiting friends and relatives in a home and that often changes peoples views about going into a home. Most are not great places to live. And many people die soon after going into one.

But spending all night on the floor would not have been nice.

OP posts:
TwigsAndPebblyShit · 02/02/2023 12:42

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 02/02/2023 12:27

The trouble arises when someone who can’t even begin to care for themselves adequately, stubbornly refuses to go into a home, and relies on a relative - so often a daughter - who is now exhausted with trying to care.

Even when someone has lost capacity because of dementia, and is self funded, the whole process of finding a suitable care home and moving them, may often be exceedingly fraught.

We’ve been there twice (DM and FiL) once they were no longer safe to be left alone for even half an hour.
I would never want to go through all that again. And people who have never lived with dementia, who oh so piously say they’d never put a parent in a care home, make me bloody livid!

This.

So, SO much this....

naturalchiller · 02/02/2023 12:43

Well said.

Social worker here - just stopped for lunch between visits.

Last visit was to a 90yo lady and the daughter said she wanted mum to go into a care home. Lady has some memory issues but has capacity around this, does own personal care, no night time needs, needs support with meals etc so that's 3 x30min visits a day at most.

Not eligible for residential care, doesn't want to go, daughter trying to force it.

Nope!

Zipps · 02/02/2023 12:55

I would like to think that if I ever get dementia, laws will have moved on and I will be able to be put out of the misery.
Like we have pets put to sleep at the end, their life has gone and we are told it's the kindest thing to do.
Yet with people we keep them alive for a long time with no quality of life at all. Terrifying and really unkind imo.
Carers? yes. Care home with dementia?
no thanks. I'd rather be dead.

helpfulperson · 02/02/2023 12:57

I also hate the phrase. Its presuming that they have a right to make decisions for that person.

What family have the right to do is choose how much care and support they are able to provide.

Badger1970 · 02/02/2023 13:06

My Dad had to be admitted to a nursing home following a long stay in a hospice because we couldn't manage to care for him at home adequately (he had liver cancer). He was in there for a month and the quality of care was absolutely abyssmal. The routine is completely inflexible, they're always short staffed and the "care" consists of around 30 minutes a day personal attention at best. Most of the time, people are dumped in their rooms or in a communal space in front of a TV. It's cruel, pointless and frankly I'd rather be 6 foot under than ever have to go in one. And this was a home that is rated as "outstanding".......

In hindsight, I would have found and paid for a private nursing agency for his last month. He'd have died with a basic level of dignity that way.

Tara336 · 02/02/2023 13:09

All cases are very individual. My DF has dementia and HE decided that DM caring for him was perfectly acceptable when she is only 1 year younger then him, all be it she is in good health but she was soon struggling emotionally and physically with his demands. He was refusing food and medication and being difficult with any carers that came in. He thought everyday fine with DM getting up 3 times a night to toilet him, wash him etc and then became aggressive as the thought of her even leaving the house as he might need something. He is currently sectioned as he refused to go into respite and couldn't comprehend he was killing DM. I have said I will wash my hands of the situation if DM has him home again as the emotional stress of it all made me ill and was beginning to affect my marriage as I was having to try and support DM and work. Yes we forced DM into a ward, but it was for everybody's sake including his as he needed treatment and it was the only way we could see he had it

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 02/02/2023 13:14

Well, sometimes they do have a right, @helpfulperson - when someone now needs 24/7 care and supervision, and it can’t be provided any other way.

My DM honestly believed there was nothing wrong with her (it wasn’t ‘denial’) when her short term memory was zero and she could no longer even make herself a cup of tea. But if anyone had asked, she’d have said that of course she could still manage everything - because she couldn’t remember that she couldn’t.

TonTonMacoute · 02/02/2023 13:18

AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 12:40

@TonTonMacoute I am so sorry to hear that.

I do understand your MILs views though. The issue is that as you get older you inevitably end up visiting friends and relatives in a home and that often changes peoples views about going into a home. Most are not great places to live. And many people die soon after going into one.

But spending all night on the floor would not have been nice.

Yes, I can totally understand it too, I would hate having to rely on others for so much, but you do have to be practical.

We moved her to be very near us and were happy to drive her around while she was waiting for a cataract op, and do shopping during lockdown, but I know she absolutely hated asking for help.

It was when the Alzheimer's kicked in that things became very difficult as she really did lose the ability to make rational decisions.

Of course MIL, like many of her generation, never had to look after elderly relatives themselves, and didn't go through all this.

I do wonder if we will be more cooperative when it's our turn to be old?

CaptainHammer · 02/02/2023 13:19

Especially at the moment when spaces in care homes are like gold dust and even people who want/desperately need to reside in one are struggling to find a room

felulageller · 02/02/2023 13:22

There is so much elder abuse in this country from relatives neglecting older people and stopping them having carers or going into residential care because they want the money as their inheritance.

Original poster
AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 13:22

@TonTonMacoute Maybe I am older because my generation of parents did care for their own parents much more than now.
I think accepting carers is something people need to do. I do not think people need to accept going into a home. And I know when my time comes that decision might shorten my life. I would still choose that.

OP posts:
Original poster
AllOutofEverything · 02/02/2023 13:23

felulageller · 02/02/2023 13:22

There is so much elder abuse in this country from relatives neglecting older people and stopping them having carers or going into residential care because they want the money as their inheritance.

Sadly I have come across this and Social Services intervened.

OP posts:
saraclara · 02/02/2023 13:23

Of course MIL, like many of her generation, never had to look after elderly relatives themselves, and didn't go through all this.

@TonTonMacoute where do you get that from? If anything, I think more people of her generation had to (or were expected to) care for their elderly relatives than do now. Mainly because they are less likely to work full time. My mum certainly had to care for both her mother in law (who had to eventually live with us) AND, later, both her own parents. And that seemed pretty standard among her peers.

CrotchetyQuaver · 02/02/2023 13:28

Surely its one of the hardest decisions anyone has to make? We (dad and I) had to do it with my mum, she'd become a danger to herself because of dementia, dad couldn't cope due to his age and lack of strength and I couldn't be there all the time. My brother was dead against it, but he lived abroad and had no idea how bad things had got and fought bitterly and hard against us. Mum actually enjoyed being in the nursing home and the gentle social activities and it turned out to be a blessing all round. Everyone benefitted in the end. But my goodness how hard that decision was