Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Another dog attack- 4 year old killed. Devastating

534 replies

singingsussie · 01/02/2023 06:14

Just woke up to this news this morning. It's just so incredibly heartbreaking for all involved. Seems to be happening so much more than ever these days

OP posts:
Iwantabloodypizza · 01/02/2023 11:12

LaLuz7 · 01/02/2023 11:05

Most definitely not. It's an absolutely ridiculous stance.

It’s crazy.

I owned a dog once. And while I lived her and cared for her, any ‘random’ human life, especially a child’s life would have come before hers in a heartbeat.

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:14

LaLuz7
and yet with all those conditions there are 1700 deaths a year, plus many thousands of injuries, but yet your are more concerned by dogs

JarByTheDoor · 01/02/2023 11:15

EdithStourton · 01/02/2023 08:56

Thanks for tarring us all with the same brush. It doesn't exactly help us all have a respectful and sensible conversation about this.

FWIW, I'm a dog owner. I find cases like this very sad and disturbing. I've noticed which breeds and types are usually responsible for serious maulings and deaths and am in favour of regulating and restricting them. I wouldn't even object to a sensible licencing system - though I suspect that the people who own strong breeds and encourage aggression won't bother, so (as usual) the restrictions will fall on the responsible owners and have no impact on the irresponsible.

You can argue against any law by saying "the law-abiding will follow it but the people causing the problem won't bother".

You could, if you wanted, set up a (probably slightly seeming, compared to what we have now) system where all dogs have to be chipped and owners have to be trained, licensed and insured, and it's actually properly monitored and enforced, with info on a centralised database on things like:

  • registered owner and contact details
  • other nominated persons with responsibility for dog
  • registered home address(es)
  • registered veterinary practice
  • DNA info
  • history (health, parentage, previous owners)
  • veterinary statement of conformity to law on permitted breeds/types, certification of acceptable temperament, explanation of any tail/ear/other modifications, spay/neuter status (and vet explanation if intact), certification of suitability/unsuitability for breeding if relevant (with heavy penalties for breeding from animals not certified as suitable), vaccination status, etc.
  • up-to-date dog licence fees paid
  • third party liability insurance details
  • up-to-date training and competence certificates for owner (unless they're only the official owner, and won't be alone with the dog without another nominated person) and all other nominated persons
  • anything else useful

and the lowest possible threshold required to allow dogs to be scanned for a chip and check info, with scanners provided to any and all officials or designated individuals who might plausibly come into contact with a dog, and full legal right for them to do so, so it's considered no more of an accusation or an imposition than having your numberplate scanned by police or a car park. Neighbour complains to the council about barking, your dog could be scanned; someone says your dog looked at them funny, your dog could be scanned; someone anonymously reports your dog's ears look too short, you have a social services/HV visit, you let your dog off the lead somewhere questionable, a police officer walks past and fancies scanning it, dog could be scanned. Ideally some kind of improved chip/scanner so it's not a bulky extra thing to carry.

And although people on MN always pop up to say it's crackers, DNA testing of dog shit and dog bites has been done before now and could be implemented. Billed to the owners or their insurance when identified, or paid from dog licence fee revenue if not.

Any dog found without a chip, or which is not under the control of an individual who is able to prove license-holder/nominee status for that dog (or under the control of a qualified individual like a registered kennel, licensed dog-walker or vet), or with any info incorrect, absent, or not up to date, the dog is seized, and owner pays a fine, and either rectifies the problem or the dog is humanely destroyed.

Dog causes a problem, and depending on the problem, fines are levied, additional training is required to keep the licence (at the owner's cost), liability insurance kicks in, owners and/or relevant nominated persons lose their right to hold a dog licence or be nominated persons either temporarily (and must obtain a new training and competence certificates) or permanently, existing criminal penalties apply, dog is removed and rehomed, or dog is destroyed.

I know it sounds harsh to talk so much about destroying animals but I would like a much lower threshold in general for destroying pet animals, because I care about them and don't believe in gratuitous suffering. I don't think that the never-put-a-healthy-dog-down stuff does pet animals a lot of favours at all. So many of our pets are deliberately bred from unsuitable parents to be in constant discomfort and pain, or they're put in shelters where they're warehoused while they slowly develop psychological problems, or they're passed from owner to owner. They don't really understand the future, or dread the concept of death. They were brought into being to be pets, so if they're not being pets and they're in pain or stuck in a shelter anything beyond the short term for administrative purposes, it's pointless to inflict continued life on them based on the principle that maybe one day they might become a happy pet, IMO.

I would also want to have schemes in place to assist those who would genuinely struggle with the cost or the admin through no fault of their own, like homeless people, those with mental health problems, or people with unexpected changes in circumstance, so I'd set the licence fee nice and high for the majority to subsidise that help.

In the context of the overall cost and admin of having a family dog, this kind of system shouldn't be too onerous for most dog owners, and there's not much over and above what responsible owners already do. Owning an animal for pleasure that can, if not cared for and managed properly, result in injury and death to others, fear and intimidation of members of the public, fouling of the local environment, serious noise nuisance, traffic hazards, significant suffering of the animal itself, and so on, is a privilege and a responsibility more on a par with running a car than with anything else I can think of right now. These kinds of regulations and intrusions and fees would still be far less than owning a car.

And yes, there are still some people who run cars without insurance or MOT tests, or with bald tyres, or who drive recklessly and maim and kill people, so there would still be arseholes breeding massive powerful dogs, cutting bits off them to make them look 'ard, fighting them, using them as status symbols and threats and weapons, who would try and circumvent the system, but we could at least try to deal with it.

JarByTheDoor · 01/02/2023 11:16

*probably slightly totalitarian-seeming

RobinaCherry · 01/02/2023 11:18

the local pub around here would be shut, most of his business is from dog walkers, in fact he would probably tell you to go elsewhere if you complained

I didn't say anything about pubs. There's no reason for dogs to be in shops or restaurants. There are lots of dogs and walkers in my local pub, I'm very familiar with the smell of wet Labrador - but they are restricted to the bar area, which I think is perfectly reasonable.

JacquotteDelahaye · 01/02/2023 11:18

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Staffies are one of the safest breeds in the world to have around children.

This problem was absolutely foreseen by those of us working in animal rescue. During lockdown we couldn't re-home animals, due to the fact we wouldn't be allowed to do home checks. Breeders carried on selling without seeing the people or the people seeing the previous home.
Puppies were being sent out like pizzas to many people who had no previous experience with dogs and just wanted them to relieve their own boredom. Not just puppy farms either, there was a disgusting radio 4 programme where a representative of the kennel club got to give "tips" to breeders in how to get around lockdown rules to sell their dogs.
Many of us wrote to MPs to warn of what would happen when people would go back to work or become bored with their "toy"

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:18

People really need to get a grip, 94 children were killed by Adults last year, Many by there own parents, should we have to have a licence, pass a test, go to training classes to be able to have kids?

Moxysright · 01/02/2023 11:19

I’m so sick of it!! How many children and women have been killed by dangerous dogs in the last year? I’m sorry but the whole it’s the owner not the dog narrative does my head in. A Yorkshire terrier will do less harm than a xl bully or staff. You might as-well own a lion! I believe dog laws need reviewing no off lead in public spaces, designated dog parks/ areas, license to own and breed and mandatory training too. A human life trumps a dogs life every single time!

Moxysright · 01/02/2023 11:20

Theyre pure muscle and get jaw lock. Not what I want around my children

berksandbeyond · 01/02/2023 11:22

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:18

People really need to get a grip, 94 children were killed by Adults last year, Many by there own parents, should we have to have a licence, pass a test, go to training classes to be able to have kids?

Well yes, I’d actually love that to happen but it won’t will it? We can’t even stop drug addicts and rapists from being allowed to have kids never mind your common or garden scum. I would if you could!

Galadriel90 · 01/02/2023 11:23

@Nw22 you sound like a psychopath.

hattie43 · 01/02/2023 11:23

This was the families dog not some random . Why does nobody talk about the elephant in the room .
All theses attacks take place on sink estate type homes with I adequate people having far too much dog for their capabilities as an owner . Keep a large powerful breed in a tiny backyard with no training and stimulation and it's a tragedy waiting to happen . You never see this in middle class homes .
This needs discussion and addressing . Licences will make no difference because these people won't get one it'll only be the responsible folk who wouldn't keep dogs like this anyway .

RinklyRomaine · 01/02/2023 11:24

There is a member of my family with an overly large, powerful breed, and she will never be allowed around my children. The stupid idea that the people who own these dogs won't act within the law so we won't legislate is mind boggling. Personally I think it's simple - the owner AND breeder, or yes, rescue, must be charged with manslaughter in these cases.

Megifer · 01/02/2023 11:24

Moxysright · 01/02/2023 11:20

Theyre pure muscle and get jaw lock. Not what I want around my children

No dog can lock its jaws 🙄

Tekkentime · 01/02/2023 11:24

Fancylike · 01/02/2023 11:05

False equivalency. Owning one of these dangerous bull breeds most commonly responsible for fatal attacks is more like driving a car that at any moment could lock its steering wheel and accelerate at top speed into the closest brick wall. It’s a identifiable risk to your family and others near you, that can suddenly become uncontrollable and determined to maim.

It's the same kind of BS that the NRA spout.

'What about knife crime. Should we ban knives too?' 🙄

margegunderson · 01/02/2023 11:26

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:18

People really need to get a grip, 94 children were killed by Adults last year, Many by there own parents, should we have to have a licence, pass a test, go to training classes to be able to have kids?

Always great to hear a bit of dog-lover whataboutery. Yes, that would help to keep kids safer but first of all can't we do something about the clear rise in poorly-socialised and dubious breeds of dog which are killing people in particularly unpleasant ways? Or do we have to solve the rest of society's problems first because having any old dog you want and not taking responsibility is a basic human right?

ZeroFuchsGiven · 01/02/2023 11:27

I'm absolutely sick to the back teeth of constantly reading about mutts attacking and killing people. Something drastic needs to be done.

This happened not too far from me last week. Unbelievably the dogs were returned to the owner. its there in plain sight what is going to happen then when it does it will be classed as a 'tragic accident'.

Moxysright · 01/02/2023 11:27

Megifer · 01/02/2023 11:24

No dog can lock its jaws 🙄

They have extremely strong jaws. I’ve seen brain dead owners letting their dogs swing off tree branches by their jaws.

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:29

Moxysright
in the last year only 10, it’s that rare that everyone gets reported and blown out of proportion

Megifer · 01/02/2023 11:30

Moxysright · 01/02/2023 11:27

They have extremely strong jaws. I’ve seen brain dead owners letting their dogs swing off tree branches by their jaws.

That is not lock jaw.

Iwantabloodypizza · 01/02/2023 11:33

hattie43 · 01/02/2023 11:23

This was the families dog not some random . Why does nobody talk about the elephant in the room .
All theses attacks take place on sink estate type homes with I adequate people having far too much dog for their capabilities as an owner . Keep a large powerful breed in a tiny backyard with no training and stimulation and it's a tragedy waiting to happen . You never see this in middle class homes .
This needs discussion and addressing . Licences will make no difference because these people won't get one it'll only be the responsible folk who wouldn't keep dogs like this anyway .

I do. I live in one of those shithole places.

I’ve spoken about this subject many times under various name changes.

I’ve been told on here that it’s only a tiny number of people who live like that, I’ve been called a snob.

People don’t want to hear what a state a lot of people in this country live in, how they behave, that it’s not just drug dealers in baseball
caps, it’s mums on the school run, how they don’t adhere to any rules, are only on nodding terms with the law and don’t give a shit about anything.

But it’s true.

Polkadotties · 01/02/2023 11:34

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:18

People really need to get a grip, 94 children were killed by Adults last year, Many by there own parents, should we have to have a licence, pass a test, go to training classes to be able to have kids?

Some would agree

Unphased · 01/02/2023 11:34

ZeroFuchsGiven
constantly really!!, on average 10 deaths a year, you’ve got as must chance by being killed by falling tree’s, get it in proportion

Namechangedforthisonetoday · 01/02/2023 11:35

zerofuchs wow I just listened to that report. Belgian malinois should not be owned by members of the public unless there is specific grounds for it. My DH has them just for complete clarity. They are exercised in our paddock and fields, socialise only with our other working dogs and other malinois and need hours of exercise, stimulation and walks everyday. They are never taken into public areas. They are a highly intelligent breed and they serve certain purposes (not going into that as it’s outing). They need training from day dot. They are not suited to domestic living conditions where they’ll have one quick walk around the block (if they’re lucky) and then spend the rest of the time pacing the living room. Things will go wrong very very quickly if you are keeping a breed like that in a little house on an estate. It’s disgusting and the dogs should be removed.

JesusInTheCabbageVan · 01/02/2023 11:37

Staffies are one of the safest breeds in the world to have around children.

They are lovely friendly dogs... until they're not. I've always loved staffies, but on Boxing day my dog was attacked by one and is lucky to be alive. The ferocity of the attack was terrifying. Even with me and the owner punching, kicking and stamping on it, it wouldn't let go. Not jaw lock - that's a myth - just incredibly powerful. Then they managed to drag it away and it broke free and went for her again.

I'm in the vet with her now in fact as she has needed two surgeries and dressing changes every few days. It's been over a month and it'll be at least that long again before she's anywhere near recovered.