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Ukraine Invasion: Part 37

997 replies

MagicFox · 14/01/2023 15:52

Welcome all to thread 37. Thanks to everybody contributing to the backbone of these threads (extra hat tip to Ducks and Desdemona for posting daily updates) and to all lurkers too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
129
blueshoes · 22/01/2023 13:03

ReleasetheDucks, thanks again for the key takeaways.

Prigozhin wrote a letter to the United States to find out about the crimes of the Wagnerites

Translation: Dear Mr. Kirby!
I have a question for you: "Can you name the crime committed by the Wagner PMC?
I thank you in advance,
Е. V. Prigozhin

This made me laugh. It would be amusing were it not so outrageously disingenuous.

Suggested response:

Dear Mr Prigozhin!
May I refer you on to Ukraine who are better placed to respond to your query.
Best, J. Kirby

Glad to hear that Davos are wholeheartedly behind sending weapons to Ukraine. There might be some self-interest operating there but those are powerful voices within their respective countries. Wonder what German business leaders are saying.

The Ukraine helicopter crash is tragic. Must be crushing for morale.

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 13:25

Speaking of morale, a certain Mr Johnson is in Ukraine today 🙂

blueshoes · 22/01/2023 14:42

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 13:25

Speaking of morale, a certain Mr Johnson is in Ukraine today 🙂

That's his strength. He does know how to make the right noises. Anything which boosts Ukraine morale at such a dire point is welcome in my book.

Boris no doubt also running away from the latest sleaze allegations regarding the BBC chairman's 800K loan to him.

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 15:01

No matter what else has gone on, Boris has been brilliant on Ukraine, and they absolutely love him.

MagicFox · 22/01/2023 15:10

Call me a cynic, but he's been brilliant for his own nefarious reasons imo so I just can't get on board with the Boris praise

OP posts:
MagicFox · 22/01/2023 15:10

But I totally take the point re morale in ukraine

OP posts:
BringBackCoffeeCreams · 22/01/2023 15:27

MagicFox · 22/01/2023 15:10

Call me a cynic, but he's been brilliant for his own nefarious reasons imo so I just can't get on board with the Boris praise

Same. I vaguely remember reading about him trying to scupper military support to Ukraine while he was foreign secretary. Then it became a convenient distraction from the home grown shit show he'd created.

Alexandra2001 · 22/01/2023 15:30

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 15:01

No matter what else has gone on, Boris has been brilliant on Ukraine, and they absolutely love him.

Has he?

He talked about sending Chally 2's last year but never did anything about it, the UK 's total military spend to Ukraine is less than Germany's, quite a bit less too.

Bojo is a larger than life character who talks a good yarn, so from the morale aspect, yes he great, the Ukrainians never had him as their PM either....

It must also be remembered that BJ played the Russian tune, allowing Russian influence in UK politics and supporting Brexit ( a Putin aim) which has weakened the EU and its response to Russian aggression, in that regard, he has harmed the Ukrainians, he and his party slashed UK defence spending to..

Bojo is a friend to no one but himself.

Igotjelly · 22/01/2023 15:38

Boris doesn’t care about Ukraine, Boris cares about Boris.

interesting that this visit occurs right when another sleaze scandal is enveloping him…..

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 15:51

I take on board all that has been said, but I am less bothered about why he is doing it than if it works. I just want this to end and if that means he scores some personal political capital at the same time, so be it.

blueshoes · 22/01/2023 17:12

In the FT, and you can also access it here:

Rasputin's shadow spreads over Russia's Wagner Group

publicnewstime.com/news/economy/rasputins-shadow-spreads-over-russias-wagner-group/

notimagain · 22/01/2023 18:16

MagicFox · 22/01/2023 15:10

Call me a cynic, but he's been brilliant for his own nefarious reasons imo so I just can't get on board with the Boris praise

As an aside/ Out of interest wonder if Mr Johnson has changed his mind from when he was talking to a Westminster committee about 15 months ago?

“We have to recognise that the old concepts of fighting big tank battles on European land mass are over, and there are other, better things we should be investing in, in FCAS, in the future combat air system, in cyber, this is how warfare in the future is going to be.”

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2022/02/watch-boris-johnson-claimed-the-days-of-big-tank-battles-in-europe-were-over

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 18:31

I think the majority of people held that view, to be honest. I remember being told at university that there would never be another land war in the style of this current one.

EdithStourton · 22/01/2023 19:07

A very, very late check-in...

Is anyone else here following the US volunteer in the Ukrainian Army at ukrainevolunteer297689472.wordpress.com/ ? Very immediate ground-up view.

notimagain · 22/01/2023 20:50

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 18:31

I think the majority of people held that view, to be honest. I remember being told at university that there would never be another land war in the style of this current one.

I'm afraid I recall going around the buoy last spring with a poster with regard to being "told at uni it would all be drones, remote killing and cyber"..

I was probably being a bit rude when I suggested they needed to ask for at least some of their course fees to be refunded.

We only now know a lot of Russian Russian kit is of often of questionable quality and generally poorly operated but I think the view in the real world is still that that large scale tank action could still be expected, witness the number of Abrams, Leopards, T-XX, still in the inventories, plus the current or planned upgrades to CR2 and LeClerc, and the South Koreans in the tank building and exporting game with their K2..

My take on Boris's comments mentioned upthread is that the context is everything - he was in that committee defending what some regarded as inadequate spending on defence, especially heavy equipment. IMO the PM just went with the standard MOD bingo phrases of "punching above our weight", "rapid deployment", "Special Forces", oh and adding value with a few buzzword phrases such as "cyber" (which of course is something the high tech sector and academia would like).

What TBF might not have helped the PM was he will have been briefed on this in the main by Army top brass who rumour has it were generally of a "light" background ( e.g. infantry/SF) and saw no reason to rock the boat and upset the PM by pushing the case for (expensive) armour...

Anyhow, here we are in 2023 ..trench warfare/mass assaults not far removed from WW1/WW" and a demand for tanks....hundreds of them....

Greenshake · 22/01/2023 20:58

Oh, I completely take on board all that has happened since and think you are absolutely right. The WWI and II parallels are plain for all to see.

Mb76 · 23/01/2023 07:36

Very late check in from me too. Thanks for the new thread and updates everyone.

prettybird · 23/01/2023 09:08

Interesting thread on the Leopards from one German perspective

https://twitter.com/weegeedutchie/status/1616733090176434176?s=48&t=Omqgri_UToXDhewL3ksg8w

Alexandra2001 · 23/01/2023 09:17

prettybird · 23/01/2023 09:08

Interesting thread on the Leopards from one German perspective

https://twitter.com/weegeedutchie/status/1616733090176434176?s=48&t=Omqgri_UToXDhewL3ksg8w

Good read, thanks.
I do wonder whether the real reason behind all of the tanks saga is down to the fact the West have run down stocks of working tanks to such low levels that haven't go any (or very few) to give? nor the ability to produce spares and ammunition in a timely manner... and don't want to admit it ..to Russia or the public.

Igotjelly · 23/01/2023 09:23

They were discussing the tank issue on one of the many Ukraine podcasts (apologies now can't remember which one!) and it was quite interesting. They spoke about the collective memory in Germany of being on the wrong side of WW2 and a general nervousness about the symbolism of German tanks rolling into Ukraine given that the last time they were the aggressor. Germany has a real collective national trauma that they still struggle with and that mentality shouldn't be underestimated.

Its also important to remember that many in Germany have a real nervousness of escalation and that mentality stems from a good percentage of the population having living memory of being part of the Soviet Union and being actively fed the fear that came with that.

Its a very complicated national identity that's totally distinct from most other parts of Europe.

notimagain · 23/01/2023 09:40

Alexandra2001 · 23/01/2023 09:17

Good read, thanks.
I do wonder whether the real reason behind all of the tanks saga is down to the fact the West have run down stocks of working tanks to such low levels that haven't go any (or very few) to give? nor the ability to produce spares and ammunition in a timely manner... and don't want to admit it ..to Russia or the public.

Errr.... sorry but I have to ask - after all the previous discussion we've had why the wonder?

Sorry to be slightly pointed but it's Monday AM but you could have at least have had the kindness to also comment that 'ah, oh yes, that's what notimagain and Missconduct have been saying, so despite my obvious doubts maybe they were right after all.

Just running through it again:

Many of the public like big numbers when it comes to defence.

The politicians announce big numbers...

Behind the scenes as equipment ages (especially complex equipment) it tends to get less reliable so becomes less serviceable.

So you may have to rob some kit to keep other kit serviceable (especially if the equipment is towards end of planned life).

End result is your inventory may still show 200 tank/aircraft on the books, so the politicians can still quote big numbers in the inventory but you've only got 40 or 50 that can actually be used on any given day, and stuff all spare to give away.

If a weapon is about to reach end of life you're possibly not going to be stocking a lot of spare ammo anyway.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/01/2023 14:15

Special published assessment today

[This one is mostly about Prigozhin, Wagner and the changing winds of Putin's favour]

Wagner financier Yevgeny Prigozhin’s star has begun to set after months of apparent rise following his failure to make good on promises of capturing Bakhmut with his own forces.

Putin appears to have decided to turn away from relying on Prigozhin and his irregular forces and to put his trust instead in Gerasimov, Shoigu, and the conventional Russian military once more.

Putin’s decision to focus and rely on conventional Russian forces is marginalizing the Wagner Group and the siloviki faction that nevertheless continues to contribute to Russian war efforts in Ukraine.

Putin likely turned to Prigozhin’s irregular forces to get through the period following the Russian conventional military’s culmination after the reckless and costly push to seize Severodonetsk and Lysychansk.

Prigozhin likely imagined that his efforts in Ukraine would continue to lend him military and political power in Russia.

Prigozhin's recent apparent fall from grace and influence likely reflects the real limitations on his actual power. US and UK intelligence estimated that Prigozhin has approximately 50,000 fighters in Ukraine, of whom 40,000 are convicts and 10,000 contractors

Putin had never fully given in to Prigozhin’s recommendations or demands throughout this transitional period and had likely always planned to put Prigozhin back into his place once the Russian conventional military improved enough to bear the burden of continuing the war.

Putin’s turn on Prigozhin has positive and negative implications for Russia’s military campaign in Ukraine.

...The marginalization of people like Prigozhin..., is a good thing.[35] The return to prominence and influence of more professional military officers such as Gerasimov likely suggests a reduced likelihood that Putin will give in to the crazier demands of the far-right pro-war faction, possibly in turn further reducing the already-low likelihood of irrational Russian escalations. .... Prigozhin is not yet gone and will not likely leave Putin’s circle permanently. And he could rise again if Gerasimov and his cronies fail Putin once more. But Prigozhin is, for now, apparently an increasingly spent force in the Kremlin’s inner circles, and that is good.

But the re-emergence of the professional Russian military is also concerning. Prigozhin could never have established a formidable and sustainable national military apparatus. ....His re-embrace of Gerasimov and regular order has likely put Russia back on course toward rebuilding its military. NATO would do well to take note of this development as a matter of its own future security, beyond anything it might portend for Ukraine.

Key inflections in ongoing military operations on January www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

Russian State Duma Chairman Vyacheslav Volodin made uncredible threats of nuclear escalation as part of an ongoing information operation aimed at deterring the Western provision of further military aid to Ukraine.[36] ISW continues to assess that Russia is very unlikely to use nuclear weapons in Ukraine and extraordinarily unlikely to use them against the West.

Russian milbloggers on January 22 continued to discuss the potential of a pending major Russian or Ukrainian offensive and speculated as to which areas present the highest priority targets.[37]

Russian forces continued limited counterattacks to regain lost positions along the Svatove-Kreminna line on January 22.[38] Russian sources claimed that Ukrainian forces struck an industrial facility in Kadiivka, Luhansk Oblast with HIMARS rockets.[39]

Russian forces continued offensive operations in the Bakhmut and the Donetsk City-Avdiivka areas.[40]

Russian sources claimed on January 22 that Russian forces continued offensive operations in two directions in Zaporizhia Oblast, with their main efforts focusing on Hulyaipole and Orikhiv.[41] Head of the Ukrainian Joint Press Center of the Tavrisk Direction Defense Forces Yevhen Yerin stated on January 22 that Russian forces are not conducting large-scale operations in the Zaporizhia direction.[42]

Russian occupation authorities continued commandeering civilian infrastructure in occupied territories at the expense of civilian health and safety on January 22.[43]

ISW will continue to report daily observed Russian and Belarusian military activity in Belarus.

ISW’s most dangerous course of action warning forecast about a potential major Russian offensive against northern Ukraine from Belarus appears increasingly unlikely. ISW currently assesses the risk of a Russian invasion of Ukraine from Belarus as very low. ISW will continue reporting observed indicators we are using to refine our assessments and forecasts, which we expect to update regularly.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 37
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/01/2023 14:23

Kyiv Indep Telegram

⚡️US lawmakers call for giving (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/us-lawmakers-call-for-giving-ukraine-abrams-tanks-to-ensure-delivery-of-leopards) Ukraine Abrams tanks to ensure delivery of Leopards.
Michael McCaul, chairman of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, on Jan. 22 called for giving Ukraine U.S.-made Abrams tanks as a way to push Germany to allow the delivery of German-made Leopard tanks to Ukraine. However, the German government has denied making such a demand.

⚡️German minister: Berlin won't oppose (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/german-minister-berlin-wont-oppose-delivery-of-polish-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine) delivery of Polish Leopard tanks to Ukraine.
German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said on Jan. 22 that Berlin will not oppose Poland's decision to supply German-made Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine.

⚡️Macron does not rule out sending (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/macron-does-not-rule-out-sending-leclerc-tanks-to-ukraine) Leclerc tanks to Ukraine.
According to Macron, a decision on the transfer of Leclerc tanks to Ukraine will be made in the coming days and weeks but should be agreed with other allies, including Germany.

⚡️German defense minister: Decision (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/german-defense-minister-decision-on-leopard-tanks-for-ukraine-to-be-made-soon) on Leopard tanks for Ukraine to be made ‘soon.’
German Defense Minister Boris Pistorius told ARD that a decision on supplying Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine will be made “soon” but called for patience in this matter. "The 'Leopard' is a heavy, armored weapon that can also be used for offensive purposes. And you have to think very carefully about when you bring them," said Pistorius.

⚡️Estonia to give (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/estonia-to-give-ukraine-all-its-155-mm-howitzers-in-largest-aid-package-so-far) Ukraine all its 155-mm howitzers in largest aid package so far.

⚡️Russia, Estonia expel
(kyivindependent.com/news-feed/russia-estonia-expel-ambassadors-over-destroyed-relations)ambassadors over 'destroyed relations.'

⚡️Ukrenergo: Emergency blackouts introduced
(kyivindependent.com/news-feed/ukrenergo-emergency-blackouts-introduced-in-5-ukrainian-regions-on-jan-23)in 5 Ukrainian regions on Jan. 23
The power deficit in Ukraine’s energy system has increased as the consumption rises, the country’s state grid operator Ukrenergo reported on Jan. 23.
Emergency power outages have been introduced in Kharkiv, Dnipropetrovsk, Lviv, Zaporizhzhia, and Volyn oblasts, where consumption limits have been exceeded

Ukraine Invasion: Part 37
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/01/2023 14:33

UNITED24 Media Telegram

Spring and early summer can become a defining period of the war, Vadym Skibitsky, deputy head of the Ministry of Internal Affairs and Communications, said in an interview with Delfi

🇮🇹🇫🇷Italy and France are completing the preparation of SAMP / T air defense systems for transfer to Ukraine. According to Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani, Italy has already provided Ukraine with five packages of military assistance worth about 1 billion euros, and that a sixth package is being prepared, which includes air defense systems.

Iran is threatening to withdraw from the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian said.

The Moroccan army sent about 20 T-72B tanks to Ukraine, — the Algerian edition of MenaDefense
This is only the first batch, at the moment it is not known how many tanks the country is ready to send to Kyiv.
Before being sent, the tanks were modernized in the workshops of the Czech arms company Excalibur.

Russian military intelligence is behind the mail bombs in Spain in 2022. They used ultra-right groups to execute, – The New York Times

In Congress, the USA called for the transfer of long-range artillery to Kyiv, writes Politico.
"The two main things that Zelenskyy and everyone I've talked to are saying is that they need tanks for the winter offensive that the Russians are going to launch, and they need long-range artillery," McCaul was quoted as saying

Japanese Prime Minister Fumio Kishida is considering the possibility of visiting Kyiv in February and holding talks with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the Yomiuri newspaper reports, citing sources in the Japanese government.

he Russians mined at least 680,000 hectares of territory in the liberated part of the Kherson region and another 200,000 hectares in the Mykolaiv region, Brigadier General Oleksandr Tarnavskyi, commander of the operational-strategic group of troops "Tavria", reported.

In Norway, the possible transfer of Leopard tanks to Ukraine will be discussed at a closed meeting of the Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defense, – Dagbladet

Today, the ministers of foreign affairs of the EU countries will discuss the transfer of tanks to Ukraine, – the head of EU diplomacy, Josep Borrell

Hungary has unblocked the allocation of 500 million euros of military aid to Ukraine, reports Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty European affairs journalist Rikard Jozwiak.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 23/01/2023 14:37

Live: Ukraine Telegram

Since the summer of 2022, the German Ministry of Defense has had a detailed list of Leopard tanks in the German army, their number and condition. It also indicates which of them can be transferred to Ukraine.
According to the list, the Bundeswehr has a total of 312 Leopard-2 tanks of various modifications, of which 99 were undergoing maintenance and repair as of May last year, and one was being prepared for write-off.
The most suitable for transfer to Ukraine are 19 Leopard 2A5 tanks. This is an improved version of the Leopard 2A4, which is the most common version in Europe. Currently, 19 German tanks are being used for training at the army's combat training center. They simulate enemy tanks during maneuvers.

Following the meeting in Ramstein, Deputy Chairman of the Russian Security Council Dmitry Medvedev said that "it will be very difficult for Russia and there is no need for illusions." [be the first time they've considered dropping their bizarre world view and illusions then]

Mordovian man says the newly formed mobilised unit in Ulyanovsk has thirty wounded before even reaching Ukraine due to drunken fights, overdoses, and frostbites.

On the occasion of the Day of Unity of Ukraine, 333 sunflowers were planted in the center of New York. The installation can be found on Flatiron Plaza.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 37
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