Page 23 | Cultural circumcision in babies/young boys

junipermarten · 2023-01-13T14:46:49+00:00

1 of my DS's is circumcised due to a medical issue, he was 3 at the time and it was bloody horrific. When he was going through it, a good friend gave me tips on after care and offered the number of a private doctor. She has sons who were circumcised shortly after birth for religious reasons. I personally don't agree with circumcision unless medically required however I respect others choices for religious reasons. It got me thinking about the high % of boys in the US who are circumcised for cultural reasons, just over 2/3rds. Why is it so prevalent there? I was having a look at % of male pop per country and the highest were mainly Islamic, but also Samoa was almost 100% which surprised me but apparently its cultural as opposed to religious (I think).

Mischance · 21/01/2023 15:26

pointythings · 21/01/2023 15:06

@TooBigForMyBoots to the best of my knowledge there haven't been any countries that have banned male infant circumcision - Iceland has come closest but the law has not been passed.

Not all religious practice is created equal, and your faux naivete in pretending all religious practices are valuable and do no harm shows that you are not arguing in good faith. Infant circumcision is irreversible and does harm to a relatively small but nevertheless significant subset of its victims; these men are left with physical and psychological consequences that cannot be undone. You seem opposed to female circumcision no matter that in some cultures and faiths it is a tradition that goes back to the 3rd century or thereabouts; so why are you not up in arms about that practice being banned? You have also completely failed to answer questions asked as to why the abolition of male circumcision would end Judaism completely when the faith has so many other key aspects, and you have failed to answer my question on why faiths and their practices should be exempt from scrutiny of their practices. It is not authoritarian to object to carrying out non-medical irreversible procedures on newborn babies. If this were about fingers, toes or earlobes, people would be up in arms.

I can only conclude that your moral compass needs work.

Well quite.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 16:06

pointythings · 21/01/2023 15:06

@TooBigForMyBoots to the best of my knowledge there haven't been any countries that have banned male infant circumcision - Iceland has come closest but the law has not been passed.

Not all religious practice is created equal, and your faux naivete in pretending all religious practices are valuable and do no harm shows that you are not arguing in good faith. Infant circumcision is irreversible and does harm to a relatively small but nevertheless significant subset of its victims; these men are left with physical and psychological consequences that cannot be undone. You seem opposed to female circumcision no matter that in some cultures and faiths it is a tradition that goes back to the 3rd century or thereabouts; so why are you not up in arms about that practice being banned? You have also completely failed to answer questions asked as to why the abolition of male circumcision would end Judaism completely when the faith has so many other key aspects, and you have failed to answer my question on why faiths and their practices should be exempt from scrutiny of their practices. It is not authoritarian to object to carrying out non-medical irreversible procedures on newborn babies. If this were about fingers, toes or earlobes, people would be up in arms.

I can only conclude that your moral compass needs work.

You keep banging on about the physical and psychological consequences on millions of men. But you have provided no studies and no evidence beyond "a group of men in America said". You don't even know if the circumcised men of the UK a parliamentary petition going.

You have provided no evidence that the circumcised citizens of the UK want it banned. You have proposed legistlation that will result in the loss of UK citizens, be they Jewish, Muslim or other. You have said that you are fine with creating 100s of thousands of refugees from this country. I suggest it's your moral compass needs work @pointythings.

Kabalagala · 21/01/2023 16:14

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 16:06

You keep banging on about the physical and psychological consequences on millions of men. But you have provided no studies and no evidence beyond "a group of men in America said". You don't even know if the circumcised men of the UK a parliamentary petition going.

You have provided no evidence that the circumcised citizens of the UK want it banned. You have proposed legistlation that will result in the loss of UK citizens, be they Jewish, Muslim or other. You have said that you are fine with creating 100s of thousands of refugees from this country. I suggest it's your moral compass needs work @pointythings.

Show quote history

God imagine if we all emigrated because we cant do exactly what we want. Stop being dramatic.

pointythings · 21/01/2023 16:50

It doesn't have to be 'millions of men'. Even one is one too many. There are more than one. And as I have repeated ad nauseam, I am looking at this globally, not just on a UK level.

You still haven't explained why you think FGM isn't OK in those communities in the UK where it is a millennia-old tradition, but male infant circumcision is fine...

You still haven't explained how Judaism and Islam would die just because they aren't allowed to cut babies.

You don't seem able to understand that causing a newborn pain in the name of religion is immoral, you just keep defending the indefensible.

You haven't answered my points about why religions should have the privilege to cause pain and do harm just because they are religions.

If you think 'God wants me to' justifies this, then God is a monster.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 17:39

Kabalagala · 21/01/2023 16:14

God imagine if we all emigrated because we cant do exactly what we want. Stop being dramatic.

Show quote history

You're not familiar with history are you?

Kabalagala · 21/01/2023 17:47

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 17:39

You're not familiar with history are you?

Show quote history

It is because I'm familiar with history that i know we don't need to flee everytime a law changes. Nobody is proposing Judaism be outlawed. Africans (my DH is a circumcised African man, and we have sons fwiw), Jews and Muslims will have to adapt. Just like people have adapted to not being allowed to beat their wives, or have multiple wives, or keep slaves. Its not an attack, its cultural evolution.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 18:09

This isn't any law, this is a law that forces citizens to choose between their God and their country. What does history say about those laws?

pointythings · 21/01/2023 18:33

And again you're equating infant circumcision with Judaism without having addressed any of the points made about societies where FGM has the same status...

Religions have changed and evolved in response to all kinds of pressures over the centuries. Why should they be exempt now?

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 19:43

They're not exempt. Any parent in the UK can choose to have their sons circumcised. There are no societies where FGM has the same status as male infant circumcision within Judaism.

Weefreetiffany · 21/01/2023 20:06

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 19:43

They're not exempt. Any parent in the UK can choose to have their sons circumcised. There are no societies where FGM has the same status as male infant circumcision within Judaism.

Revealing you know nothing about FGM. Look at Egypt, Ethiopia and Eastern Africa for a start. Sometimes in the countryside places they do a little snip of the labia, often including the clitoris, after a woman has given birth to her first child, to keep things neat. Often she’s not informed or allowed to consent, it’s “what is done” and the whole area is stretched and healing anyway. But don’t let the truth of voiceless womens experiences get in the way of your ignorance of other cultures and minimisations of the damage of genital mutilation.

there are so many internal contradictions within any and all religious and cultural practices, and a lot is left open to interpretation so as to stay relevant as progress happens. So many harmful beliefs have been left by the roadside, why not this one too?

pointythings · 21/01/2023 20:13

Clearly you do think that Judaism and Islam are exempt from critical scrutiny of their religious practices. Why else are you defending something like infant circumcision? FGM traditions in the countries mentioned by @Weefreetiffany are easily as old as the Jewish tradition for male babies, but somehow they are bad and Judaism is fine? Just because the Jewish tradition has it written down somewhere in their holy book, it's OK but millennia of oral tradition are not valid? Well, that's not at all Anglocentric.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 21:04

I am aware what FGM entails @pointythings I am not aware of religions where it has the same status or significance as male infant circumcision in Judaism. Nor am I aware of any 1000yo British practice of FGM.

pointythings · 21/01/2023 21:15

I am not aware of religions where it has the same status or significance as male infant circumcision in Judaism.

So if there were such a religion, would you then suddenly find FGM acceptable?Just because of religion? Really?

'Because religion' is not a reason to do harm.

Kabalagala · 21/01/2023 21:29

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 21:04

I am aware what FGM entails @pointythings I am not aware of religions where it has the same status or significance as male infant circumcision in Judaism. Nor am I aware of any 1000yo British practice of FGM.

Religious significance =/= justified

pointythings · 21/01/2023 21:34

Religious significance =/= justified

Exactly. Grotesque that anyone should think otherwise.

TooBigForMyBoots · 21/01/2023 22:36

pointythings · 21/01/2023 21:15

I am not aware of religions where it has the same status or significance as male infant circumcision in Judaism.

So if there were such a religion, would you then suddenly find FGM acceptable?Just because of religion? Really?

'Because religion' is not a reason to do harm.

Why do you need a thought experiment?

You are proposing a ban on circumcision in this real country/world. What real benefits will it bring?

I am not arguing Religion = Justified.

pointythings · 22/01/2023 08:00

I am not arguing Religion = Justified.

You are arguing exactly that. I'm amazed you can't see it. Throughout this thread you have been saying that male infant circumcision is acceptable because it's part of some major religions.

That's why I asked for the thought experiment. If something is acceptable because it is done on religious grounds, then for you FGM should also be acceptable in a hypothetical faith where it is part of 'scripture'. Would it be?

pointythings · 22/01/2023 08:02

And the benefits are simple: newborn babies will not suffer pain. They will not suffer complications if the procedure doesn't happen. They will not die (rare, but it has happened) if the procedure doesn't happen. They will not grow up with physical, sexual and psychological problems if the procedure doesn't happen.

Honestly, I wonder at your thought processes.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/01/2023 20:51

We don't need any "thought experiments", we can deal with the issue in hand: Banning male infant circumcision in 2023 UK.

Doing so will piss off loads of people (not just Jews) who are just as British as you. It will be costly and widely opposed. It will not eliminate complications arising from circumcision as it tends to be a more painful, complicated procedure the older the male. It will create 100s of thousands refugees. It will damage Britain on a global basis. We live in a democracy that facilitates citizen concerns being heard in Parliament. AFAIK, none(?) of the millions of men with physical, sexual and psychological problems arising from circumcision are requesting a ban.

MaryBary · 22/01/2023 21:03

@TooBigForMyBoots there are a number of intactivist groups asking for a ban. There are a few posters telling you this but you keep ignoring it. Look up bloodstained men and intact America watch the doc on netflix and actually educate yourself. These men deserve to be heard.

MaryBary · 22/01/2023 21:08

@TooBigForMyBoots petition.parliament.uk/petitions/598185
petition.parliament.uk/archived/petitions/111265

Here's a couple in the UK - there are many many more if you care to run a very short Google search.

FloydPepper · 22/01/2023 21:08

I’m revisiting this thread after being accused of anti semitism by a couple of posters a while back. I knew then it was a foundless claim simply designed to deflect from criticism.

ive read what’s been posted since then and nothing has and will change. Posters are pointing out that a practice that is cruel and hurtful should not be immune from criticism as challenge, and the only support of it I can see are a couple of posters saying nothing other that “but religion”

as someone else posted, they should probably look at their moral compass but I see no evidence they have one.

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/01/2023 21:17

Thank you @MaryBary. Why do you think those petitions attracted so few names?

@FloydPepper, there has been much more to it than "but religion". There has been plenty if "but the actual real world" legal challenges, authoritarianism and the creation of refugees.

FloydPepper · 22/01/2023 21:43

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/01/2023 21:17

Thank you @MaryBary. Why do you think those petitions attracted so few names?

@FloydPepper, there has been much more to it than "but religion". There has been plenty if "but the actual real world" legal challenges, authoritarianism and the creation of refugees.

Please don’t @ me

they are objections to how. Your only objection to the “why” is “but religion”. It’s the only reason you do what you and the only reason you have to shop why it’s ok.

Kabalagala · 22/01/2023 21:45

TooBigForMyBoots · 22/01/2023 21:17

Thank you @MaryBary. Why do you think those petitions attracted so few names?

@FloydPepper, there has been much more to it than "but religion". There has been plenty if "but the actual real world" legal challenges, authoritarianism and the creation of refugees.

Please stop with the hyperbole. It's insulting when there's people fleeing actual persecution.