Cultural circumcision in babies/young boys

[junipermarten]

1 of my DS's is circumcised due to a medical issue, he was 3 at the time and it was bloody horrific.

When he was going through it, a good friend gave me tips on after care and offered the number of a private doctor. She has sons who were circumcised shortly after birth for religious reasons.

I personally don't agree with circumcision unless medically required however I respect others choices for religious reasons.

It got me thinking about the high % of boys in the US who are circumcised for cultural reasons, just over 2/3rds. Why is it so prevalent there?

I was having a look at % of male pop per country and the highest were mainly Islamic, but also Samoa was almost 100% which surprised me but apparently its cultural as opposed to religious (I think).

There are many different branches of Judaism, but they all require infant circumcision. That doesn't make infant circumcision acceptable, however. It also doesn't negate the existence of many movements of survivors of infant circumcision who have suffered adverse consequences and want the practice banned. These people are real, they are suffering, they deserve to be listened to.

There are many different branches of Judaism, but they all require infant circumcision.

More liberal strains of Judaism don’t. The same ones happy with marrying in, LGBT etc.

@TheWayTheLightFalls could you point me towards some links? What I've read up on about Reform Judaism suggests that they do demand circumcision and it would be nice to know that there are people out there who have taken that step forwards.

You need to look at liberal Judaism @pointythings

Thanks, I will do. Though of course certain posters on here will say that those aren't 'really Jewish'.

I think all streams support it as a matter of policy. But the more liberal ones would be more tolerant of people who didn’t do it, whereas in an orthodox shul you’d likely be out on your arse.

People who have been forced out of their own countries over generations and millenia are to be listened to too.

Ever hear of “Cleanliness is next to Godliness.”

Why would a god design a human body with a part he wanted to be removed with a knife at birth? It makes no sense.

Yep, this is why we wash and teach our children to do so.

There comes a time when you can't trade on the past any more and have to look at what you are doing in the present, and whether it is still right and necessary or whether it is a leftover rite that may have been appropriate thousands of years ago. Being treated badly in the past is not a reason to treat others badly in the present. If that were the case, the abuse my DC and I experienced would be an excuse for us to treat others badly. It isn't.

Circumcision = treated badly in your opinion. Being forced to leave your home, work and country is being treated very badly in mine.

@TooBigForMyBoots nobody is forcing anyone to leave. That's a choice based on people's insistence to persist with infant circumcision if it is legislated against. The other option is to join the 21st century.

You have not addressed my point about men who are suffering as a consequence of being circumcised for religious reasons. You persist in saying they don't exist or are not significant. Why is that? Do you care less about real living human beings who are in pain than about a religious covenant with an intangible deity?

They also ignore the question about why it has to be done as an infant, not at 18 or an age of majority.

something you choose for yourself is a much more powerful covenant than something that’s forced on a baby.

boots, if a law was passed banning genital mutilation in infants, you have argued that the people that value child genital mutilation above any other element of their religious belief would have not choice but to leave the country.

So you are agreeing that choice is important and not having a choice is a bad thing. And so you must see why we’re arguing that infant genital mutilation removes the choice from those children who it’s performed on, and that is a bad thing.

No @pointythings, you're just saying you will imprison them for practicing their religion if they stay. I haven't denied the existence of anyone, I have said that they aren't discussing it wrt UK law and suggested they should discuss it with others their communities.

Do you care more about your uncomfortable feelings around circumcision than you do about the many thousands of UK citizens who would have to leave?

@Weefreetiffany, have you polled circumcised men to ask if they would rather not be circumcised? I answered the question regarding infant circumcision upthread. Probably badly, I'm not Jewish, but you can easily find out for yourself why.

I’ll answer you when you’ve answered me. Instead of diverting away constantly.

@TooBigForMyBoots you haven't explained why religions should not change with the times, and why they are exempt from self-examination and reflection. There has been at least one case where circumcision of a young child for religious reasons has been refused for a child in care, on the grounds of child welfare.

None of this is anything to do with 'uncomfortable feelings' - it is about breaching the principle of 'do no harm' by carrying out a permanent unnecessary surgical procedure on a very young child who is not able to consent and who may have adverse consequences in later life. I don't just want to see this banned in the UK, I want to see it banned everywhere. No child should be cut just because of 'culture and tradition'. It's about refusing to accept something that is wrong.

Religions the world over have changed and adapted over time. Why should Judaism and Islam be exempt? And no, people who think cutting piece off babies are no great loss to any society.

Religions change and evolve all the time, in their own time. Right now Jews, Muslims, Christians, posh people and atheists live normal, regular lives being circumcised and I see no benefit to the UK of pissing them off and getting rid of them.

And I think that announcing it to the world would make us look increasingly isolationist and authoritarian.

Is there a petition to parliament yet @pointythings?

Thanks. My parents had me circumcised as a baby. I’m glad that I’m circumcised; I’m from an upper class English background where circumcision is very common and I would have felt out of place if I hadn’t been done. My father, brothers and nephews have all had it done as babies. It is very notable that Princes William and Harry are circumcised - given their social background I would have been very surprised if they were not. There was a boy I was at school with who had to be circumcised at 10 for medical reasons and I was spared that. I think being circumcised looks better and is cleaner - there also appears to be a reduced risk of penile cancer and possibly of cervical cancer for the female partners of circumcised men. Above all, almost all women that I have slept with seem to prefer it - in some cases very much so. My wife greatly prefers that I’m circumcised and is in favour of it. She is expecting a baby girl, but if we have a son we would have him circumcised too.

Why not let him choose when he is old enough?

A reminder that you think the only people legitimately entitled to argue against circumcision are circumcised men.

Yet you continue to argue in favour of circumcision despite not being circumcised or a man.

You have no part in this conversation, both metaphorically and literally.

I think being circumcised looks better

Seriously!
I don't think the male appendage is a thing of beauty so aethetics wouldn't come into it. And that really is a non reason for having it done.

@KSM87 my late husband was American and was circumcised, and he had problems with sensitivity and wished he hadn't been done. And given that the class system is one of the things holding the UK back, let's not bring that into it, shall we? It needs to be dismantled, not supported.

@TooBigForMyBoots I would greatly prefer that religions come to the realisation themselves that what they are doing to babies is cruel and unnecessary, but if there is a petition I'll sign it. Ideally the eradication of the practice would be a global effort, led internationally.

Let me ask you if you find FGM "abhorrent, barbaric, abuse, mutilation."

Or are you fine to see this go ahead?